Shanus-REA suit

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

"The hobby is mostly filled with low-life hucksters, some of whom grow up to own important auction houses," says a longtime collector of early baseball material. You can count the number of people who are smart and educated and honest on one hand."

This statement is patently absurd, and offensive. This hobby/business if full of smart, educated, and honest collectors and dealers. I doubt the percentage of bad apples is any worse than any other field: politics, law, religion, finance, medicine, etc., and probably a good deal cleaner than many.
Hank Thomas

Hank, I can assure you that there is a higher percentage of people in the hobby/business with criminal records than there are in the field of politics, law, religion, finance and medicine.

[19cbb]

Collector sues over 'foul balls'

By BRUCE GOLDING

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/m...iFWJ3fGZPM9IMK

A baseball-memorabilia collector is crying foul.

Corey Shanus, a Westchester lawyer who has amassed a treasure trove of artifacts from the national pastime, filed a $600,000-plus fraud suit yesterday against a dealer he claims duped him into buying two fake balls.

The Manhattan federal lawsuit says Shanus relied on expert advice from Robert Lifson of Robert Edward Auctions before bidding on two "trophy balls" purportedly from the 1800s.

But Shanus says testing shows the balls contained a material introduced in the 1900s.

Barry Kozyra, a lawyer for Lifson, said called the suit "frivolous."

[mark evans]

Regardless of the percentage of crooks in the hobby, I've always understood the parties in this case, whom I don't know, to be two of the hobby's "good guys." For their sake and that of the hobby, I should hope for an amicable resolution.

With regard to criticism of O'Keeffe, he's a journalist publishing a story he believes to be of public interest. He owes the hobby only the duty of getting it straight.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Writing headlines for the New York Post must be one of the best jobs there is. Still an all-time favorite from way back when: "Reds' Brezh Dead."

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Writing headlines for the New York Post must be one of the best jobs there is. Still an all-time favorite from way back when: "Reds' Brezh Dead."

"Headless body found in topless bar"

[Rich Klein]

"Morris the Cat goes to Heavenly Din-Din"

[ls7plus]

Kudos to Dan Markel for a great, informative post. Boy, what a mess!

Jeff and I are both lawyers, with my understanding being that he's been quite successful in trying some very tough, high profile cases, and I applaud him for that, while I focus primarily on rather routinely handling some high dollar appeals in the Michigan appellate courts and US Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals in Cinncinatti. However, I've seen some real scam jobs and out and out criminal behavior in the practice of law also, present company most definitely excepted. I've posted before about studying the area of coin collecting for a period of more than 20 years, because I think that its 120-year head start as an organized hobby over ours gives a reasonably accurate preview of what ours is likely to go through (collectors thinking patterns seem remarkably similar, whatever their focus). Coins have also experienced a huge number of frauds and scammers over time. I think its just indigenous to human nature whenever big $$$ are out there.

Our hobby will overcome and survive, however, just as other fields of endeavors have, although perhaps not without suffering many more black eyes along the way.

With respect to Mark's comments on O'Keeffe, I would respectively disagree. Although I read and enjoyed "The Card," and there is no question he writes well, I think there is little question he has an agenda to push, just as many writers in various fields do, and writes with an easily discerned animus towards the hobby. That said, participating in this hobby has always been caveat emptor, and most hobbyists thoroughly understand that. If they don't, heaven help them, as the unsavory characters lurking out there certainly won't.

Best to everyone,

Larry Smith

[docpatlv]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

...With respect to Mark's comments on O'Keeffe, I would respectively disagree. Although I read and enjoyed "The Card," and there is no question he writes well, I think there is little question he has an agenda to push, just as many writers in various fields do, and writes with an easily discerned animus towards the hobby.

Perhaps if one were to open the door to O'Keefes bedroom closet, one might find stacks upon stacks of Joe Charboneaus, Ron Kittles, and Cory Snyders. Not to mention the boxful of Starting Lineups in the back.

Mike

[Peter_Spaeth]

Tiger Admits: I'm a Cheetah.

[calvindog]

Mike O'Keeffe is a solid reporter. I deal with NY reporters on a daily basis and Mike is as good as there is in the business. Sometimes reporters make you happy, some days they make you unhappy. All you hope for is a fair shake and Mike gives you that.

As for the claim that Mike has an agenda it really depends on one's perspective at the time -- just ask Doug Allen. When his lawsuit against Dave Forman was leaked to Mike I suspect Doug was a big O'Keeffe fan; after he got his ass handed to him and Mike reported it, Doug suddenly decided that Mike had it out for him.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

......I've posted before about studying the area of coin collecting for a period of more than 20 years, because I think that its 120-year head start as an organized hobby over ours gives a reasonably accurate preview of what ours is likely to go through (collectors thinking patterns seem remarkably similar, whatever their focus). Coins have also experienced a huge number of frauds and scammers over time. I think its just indigenous to human nature whenever big $$$ are out there.

How true.

As posted many months ago on this forum, PCGS, the coin grading division of Collectors Universe (also PSA's parent company), filed a suit against at least six of their own authorized coin dealers (and perhaps even 10 additional dealers) for submitting doctored coins.

http://www.coinlink.com/News/counter...universe-pcgs/


Recently, this lawsuit was thrown out of Federal Court. The reasons why were not exactly clear and I've read a myriad of message board posts and blogs that seem to be more speculative than factual stating things such as CU couldn't sue someone for failing to do their own duty or that they weren't truly fraud victims, etc.

http://www.coinworld.com/articles/fe...-doctors-suit/


The interesting thing was that 3 of the 6 defendants were members of PNG, the Professional Numismatists Guild which has an extensive Code of Ethics including issues concerning coin doctoring and misrepresentation. However, as I recall reading, shortly after the CU lawsuit was filed, there was a problem that there were no clear guidelines regarding what exactly constituted coin doctoring versus cleaning, etc. As a result, PNG drafted a definition of what exactly entailed "coin doctoring" and when the members voted recently to add this definition to their guidelines, the members voted it down - supposedly because it wasn't clear enough.

http://www.pngdealers.com/item.php?i...&category_id=2


So in summary, if the card hobby wants to have some accountability and credibility, they're going to have to do more than make dealers and auction houses form some professional association. For starters, they will have to set some clear, unambiguous guidelines what constitutes fraud or what is ethical and what isn't in the card hobby regarding alterations and disclosure issues. That in itself could be a daunting task since there have been some threads on this board that have debated those issues ad nauseum regarding soaking, cleaning, pressing, etc. In my cynical opinion, I don't see this happening. I hope I can be proven wrong.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Hank, I can assure you that there is a higher percentage of people in the hobby/business with criminal records than there are in the field of politics, law, religion, finance and medicine.

You can assure me? You can prove this? I'm guessing the percentage is about the same.
Hank

[calvindog]

Really? Lots of lawyers, doctors and financiers with felony convictions? Ever think that these individuals are often instantly barred from their professions if convicted of a felony?

Wouldn't it be easier for you to say "I have no idea what the hell I'm talking about?"

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Really? Lots of lawyers, doctors and financiers with felony convictions? Ever think that these individuals are often instantly barred from their professions if convicted of a felony?

Wouldn't it be easier for you to say "I have no idea what the hell I'm talking about?"

Wow. What kind of fantasy world do you live in, where there's no medicare fraud, no legal conflicts of interest, no unethical Wall Street behavior that drives the economy into the toilet? There's no criminal or antisocial behavior among the professional classes, is that what you're saying? And I don't appreciate the insult, either. How smart are you that you can't even carry on a civil conversation?

[drc]

If an MD loses his license for committing a felony that means he was committing a felony while a licensed MD.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Wow. What kind of fantasy world do you live in, where there's no medicare fraud, no legal conflicts of interest, no unethical Wall Street behavior that drives the economy into the toilet? There's no criminal or antisocial behavior among the professional classes, is that what you're saying? And I don't appreciate the insult, either. How smart are you that you can't even carry on a civil conversation?

Smarter than you. Yes there are tons of unethical behavior in the areas of law, finance, medicine. But to suggest that the amount of wrongdoers in these areas is the same as in the baseball card hobby is laughable. Look at the top auction houses: Heritage, Legendary, Memory Lane, Mile High. How many of the heads have either been convicted of fraud or are targets of federal grand juries?

And David, I can assure you that the percentage of doctors convicted of felonies is a tiny fraction of of a fraction of 1%. Want to bet it's higher in our hobby?

Finally, our hobby is completely unregulated, with no bodies of oversight -- unlike the areas of law, medicine, finance, etc. Doesn't that at least give you a slight clue as to the relative incidence of bad behavior?

[byrone]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Smarter than you. Yes there are tons of unethical behavior in the areas of law, finance, medicine. But to suggest that the amount of wrongdoers in these areas is the same as in the baseball card hobby is laughable. Look at the top auction houses: Heritage, Legendary, Memory Lane, Mile High. How many of the heads have either been convicted of fraud or are targets of federal grand juries?

And David, I can assure you that the percentage of doctors convicted of felonies is a tiny fraction of of a fraction of 1%. Want to bet it's higher in our hobby?

Finally, our hobby is completely unregulated, with no bodies of oversight -- unlike the areas of law, medicine, finance, etc. Doesn't that at least give you a slight clue as to the relative incidence of bad behavior?

Perhaps the SEC could regulate the hobby. They've done a bang-up job with their current mandate.

[Peter_Spaeth]

That's what we need, a trade association!! Oh wait, don't we have one already?

[calvindog]

Brian, yes, as soon as Madoff gets out of prison perhaps the SEC can take over Marshall Fogel's watchdog group. They've done such a bang-up job in the 8 months they've been protecting us from the bad guys in the industry. Is there any truth to the rumor that JP Cohen will take over the reins from Marshall in August?

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Smarter than you. Yes there are tons of unethical behavior in the areas of law, finance, medicine. But to suggest that the amount of wrongdoers in these areas is the same as in the baseball card hobby is laughable. Look at the top auction houses: Heritage, Legendary, Memory Lane, Mile High. How many of the heads have either been convicted of fraud or are targets of federal grand juries?

And David, I can assure you that the percentage of doctors convicted of felonies is a tiny fraction of of a fraction of 1%. Want to bet it's higher in our hobby?

Finally, our hobby is completely unregulated, with no bodies of oversight -- unlike the areas of law, medicine, finance, etc. Doesn't that at least give you a slight clue as to the relative incidence of bad behavior?

I sure wish I was so smart that I could claim a certainty without being able to cite actual facts. Tell me exactly how many hobby figures you know to have criminal records, then? Not under investigation or suspicion, but actual convictions? And just to bring it back to my original point, I was only trying to say that there's an enormous amount of hobby activity transacted honestly every day online, at shows, in auctions, between individuals, etc., and that, in relation to all of that, the extent of illegal and unethical behavior is actually quite small, just as it is in the other fields mentioned for all the justified publicity the dark side gets. As for your self-declared brain power, at least I'm smart enough not to resort to childish name-calling that would expose me as a jerk. And thanks for the props, Joe, it's people like you and so many other classy individuals I know in the hobby that prompted me to defend its reputation.
Hank Thomas

[bijoem]

Hank -

I should also say - I very much enjoy breaking bread and talking hobby talk with Jeff and I consider him a good friend.

I see both of your point of views - and I think much of it is a matter of individual perspective.

As heated as the exchanges you and Jeff are having (or it seems heated anyway), I actually read through it and think that you are not fundamentally disagreeing / just looking at things from different experiences.


I am looking forward to better weather, more card shows, and more enjoyment of this hobby.


And, as was said earlier in this thread - I am looking forward to receiving the REA catalog.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I sure wish I was so smart that I could claim a certainty without being able to cite actual facts. Tell me exactly how many hobby figures you know to have criminal records, then? Not under investigation or suspicion, but actual convictions? And just to bring it back to my original point, I was only trying to say that there's an enormous amount of hobby activity transacted honestly every day online, at shows, in auctions, between individuals, etc., and that, in relation to all of that, the extent of illegal and unethical behavior is actually quite small, just as it is in the other fields mentioned for all the justified publicity the dark side gets. As for your self-declared brain power, at least I'm smart enough not to resort to childish name-calling that would expose me as a jerk. And thanks for the props, Joe, it's people like you and so many other classy individuals I know in the hobby that prompted me to defend its reputation.
Hank Thomas

Hank, you want me to cite facts about how many hobby figures have actual criminal convictions? That's a laugh, try reading the board it's all there. And why not open your eyes a bit to the reality in this hobby? But then again you're probably one of the guys who thinks that Doug Allen and Bill Mastro are good guys because they send out free catalogs.

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings but to be honest -- I'm not really sorry. You can choose to fantasize about the tiny bit of fraud which exists in the hobby and I'll keep warning people about the fraud I see which is pervasive. I'm willing to bet, however, that only one of us has real knowledge of the widespread nature of the fraud in the hobby from shill bidding to card alterations--and it is not you.

[bijoem]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Wow. What kind of fantasy world do you live in, where there's no medicare fraud, no legal conflicts of interest, no unethical Wall Street behavior that drives the economy into the toilet? There's no criminal or antisocial behavior among the professional classes, is that what you're saying? And I don't appreciate the insult, either. How smart are you that you can't even carry on a civil conversation?

I just wanted to stick my nose into this conversation to say.....

Hank is one of the nicest guys I have met in this hobby - and I (like everyone else should) look forward to stopping by his table whenever he is at a show. Not knowing Hank's circle of friends in the hobby..... I could only guess that he already knows who can be avoided and has surrounded himself with other nice, intelligent, and honorable hobby participants.

I would also love to come up with some sort of lawyer-joke-zinger to throw into this thread...... but I fear a Taddy retort would put me (understandably) on the losing side of the exchange.

[jbsports33]

What a surprise! Seems like this will be happening more often now

I am hoping there will be a resolution in the near future, tough hearing things like this in a hobby that is made to be fun for everyone.

Jimmy

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's a hobby, sure, but one where many otherwise intelligent people are ruled by wishful thinking instead of common sense and caution; and that is just fine for those unethical folks on the selling side who take advantage of their misplaced trust.

[calvindog]

Just like our law practices!

[sreader3]

Delete.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Okay. So Nash is probably a crook. Rob exercised bad judgment buying from Nash and sold Corey some bad balls. Still looking for the bad guy here (aside from Nash, probably) . . . .

I'm still waiting for this story to hit the "Breaking News" at the Hauls of Shame website. Seems like this kind of story is right up his alley...I wonder why he isn't posting it??