Shanus-REA suit

[ls7plus]

Kudos to Dan Markel for a great, informative post. Boy, what a mess!

Jeff and I are both lawyers, with my understanding being that he's been quite successful in trying some very tough, high profile cases, and I applaud him for that, while I focus primarily on rather routinely handling some high dollar appeals in the Michigan appellate courts and US Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals in Cinncinatti. However, I've seen some real scam jobs and out and out criminal behavior in the practice of law also, present company most definitely excepted. I've posted before about studying the area of coin collecting for a period of more than 20 years, because I think that its 120-year head start as an organized hobby over ours gives a reasonably accurate preview of what ours is likely to go through (collectors thinking patterns seem remarkably similar, whatever their focus). Coins have also experienced a huge number of frauds and scammers over time. I think its just indigenous to human nature whenever big $$$ are out there.

Our hobby will overcome and survive, however, just as other fields of endeavors have, although perhaps not without suffering many more black eyes along the way.

With respect to Mark's comments on O'Keeffe, I would respectively disagree. Although I read and enjoyed "The Card," and there is no question he writes well, I think there is little question he has an agenda to push, just as many writers in various fields do, and writes with an easily discerned animus towards the hobby. That said, participating in this hobby has always been caveat emptor, and most hobbyists thoroughly understand that. If they don't, heaven help them, as the unsavory characters lurking out there certainly won't.

Best to everyone,

Larry Smith

[docpatlv]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

...With respect to Mark's comments on O'Keeffe, I would respectively disagree. Although I read and enjoyed "The Card," and there is no question he writes well, I think there is little question he has an agenda to push, just as many writers in various fields do, and writes with an easily discerned animus towards the hobby.

Perhaps if one were to open the door to O'Keefes bedroom closet, one might find stacks upon stacks of Joe Charboneaus, Ron Kittles, and Cory Snyders. Not to mention the boxful of Starting Lineups in the back.

Mike

[Peter_Spaeth]

Tiger Admits: I'm a Cheetah.

[calvindog]

Mike O'Keeffe is a solid reporter. I deal with NY reporters on a daily basis and Mike is as good as there is in the business. Sometimes reporters make you happy, some days they make you unhappy. All you hope for is a fair shake and Mike gives you that.

As for the claim that Mike has an agenda it really depends on one's perspective at the time -- just ask Doug Allen. When his lawsuit against Dave Forman was leaked to Mike I suspect Doug was a big O'Keeffe fan; after he got his ass handed to him and Mike reported it, Doug suddenly decided that Mike had it out for him.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

......I've posted before about studying the area of coin collecting for a period of more than 20 years, because I think that its 120-year head start as an organized hobby over ours gives a reasonably accurate preview of what ours is likely to go through (collectors thinking patterns seem remarkably similar, whatever their focus). Coins have also experienced a huge number of frauds and scammers over time. I think its just indigenous to human nature whenever big $$$ are out there.

How true.

As posted many months ago on this forum, PCGS, the coin grading division of Collectors Universe (also PSA's parent company), filed a suit against at least six of their own authorized coin dealers (and perhaps even 10 additional dealers) for submitting doctored coins.

http://www.coinlink.com/News/counter...universe-pcgs/


Recently, this lawsuit was thrown out of Federal Court. The reasons why were not exactly clear and I've read a myriad of message board posts and blogs that seem to be more speculative than factual stating things such as CU couldn't sue someone for failing to do their own duty or that they weren't truly fraud victims, etc.

http://www.coinworld.com/articles/fe...-doctors-suit/


The interesting thing was that 3 of the 6 defendants were members of PNG, the Professional Numismatists Guild which has an extensive Code of Ethics including issues concerning coin doctoring and misrepresentation. However, as I recall reading, shortly after the CU lawsuit was filed, there was a problem that there were no clear guidelines regarding what exactly constituted coin doctoring versus cleaning, etc. As a result, PNG drafted a definition of what exactly entailed "coin doctoring" and when the members voted recently to add this definition to their guidelines, the members voted it down - supposedly because it wasn't clear enough.

http://www.pngdealers.com/item.php?i...&category_id=2


So in summary, if the card hobby wants to have some accountability and credibility, they're going to have to do more than make dealers and auction houses form some professional association. For starters, they will have to set some clear, unambiguous guidelines what constitutes fraud or what is ethical and what isn't in the card hobby regarding alterations and disclosure issues. That in itself could be a daunting task since there have been some threads on this board that have debated those issues ad nauseum regarding soaking, cleaning, pressing, etc. In my cynical opinion, I don't see this happening. I hope I can be proven wrong.