Beware Carterscards2006

[bobbyw8469]

Ctownboy - I understand your side of the argument. I really do. The problem lies now in that (as some other poster before me stated beautifully), all sellers of GAI graded cards will be in a NO WIN situation. GAI cards sell for a tiny fraction of their SGC/PSA counterparts. If the cards cross, the buyer makes out like a bandit. He gets a card in a "supposedly" superior grading service case for a small fraction of the true amount. That amount could total thousands of dollars (like the OP's card in question). If the cards don't cross, then all they have to do is return it for a full refund (even though technically GAI is on the "approved 3rd part grader" list that Ebay has on file. It is a 100% reward situation with 0% risk for the buyer. That being said, why on god's green earth would ANY seller ever sell a GAI graded card ever again!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[carrigansghost]

ctownboy is totally off base. If I cannot tell a certain motor from another and I am a Mopar expert, I find it intersting that this would come up. Buy what you know or take your chances. Learn a lesson and move on.

Rawn

[ctownboy]

To all,

I am not rich and am not an expert in engines but, for arguments sake, let's say that I win the Powerball lottery Wednesday night and then have the money to spluge on a Ferrari (or, for Carrigansghost, a Hemi Cuda).

So, let's say that instead of going to Chicago (I live in Indianapolis and we don't have an authorized Ferrari dealership) to buy a Ferrari (or for Carrigan, I don't go to a Barrett Jackson auction). But, instead, I buy a car on line (the eBay listing states the year, model, mileage and any damage but leaves out the Ferrari has a Mustang engine or the listing says the Cuda has a certain VIN number which would indicate a Hemi engine but the car has had that engine switched out at some earlier time).

Now, let's say that I pay the price, receive the car and want to get it checked out just to make sure everything is humky dorry. What happens if at that time the mechanic informs me the car doesn't have the engine it should have and the one that I paid for? DO I just sit and take it or do I complain to the seller? What if the seller doesn't respond? DO I then NOT complain to eBay and try and get a refund?

Again, as a seller on eBay, I take pains to try and list everything I know about an item I am selling and try to put a clear picture in my listing. However, even then, sometimes things happen that I either miss some damage or don't describe something properly or something happens in transit. Either way, as the seller, I feel obligated to make things right with the buyer. Because if I don't, I know a mess like this might occur (which damages my business and reputation) AND there is the chance that eBay will step in and rule against me no matter what.

In this instance, Todd bought a card he wasn't quite sure about (the GAI 7.5 grade giving the implication that the card was a full card but the GAI history giving him some concerns). When said card came back from SGC as trimmed, thus confirming Todd's questions about the card, Todd wanted a refund. When seller doesn't offer a refund (or even respond) Todd comes on here to warn others.

Again, if the seller had only refunded Todd's money and gone on, NONE of this would have happened. Todd would have his money back, the seller would have his card back (to sell again OR go after GAI with) and they wouldn't have a negative Feed Back.

Now, it looks like, if Todd is correct, eBay is going to rule against Carterscards, they are going to have to give the money back, they have received a negative and their name has been dragged through the mud on a public forum. So, even if other people don't read this forum, all someone has to do is Google Carterscards and this thread is going to appear on the search list.

David

[pgellis]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

To all,

I am not rich and am not an expert in engines but, for arguments sake, let's say that I win the Powerball lottery Wednesday night and then have the money to spluge on a Ferrari (or, for Carrigansghost, a Hemi Cuda).

So, let's say that instead of going to Chicago (I live in Indianapolis and we don't have an authorized Ferrari dealership) to buy a Ferrari (or for Carrigan, I don't go to a Barrett Jackson auction). But, instead, I buy a car on line (the eBay listing states the year, model, mileage and any damage but leaves out the Ferrari has a Mustang engine or the listing says the Cuda has a certain VIN number which would indicate a Hemi engine but the car has had that engine switched out at some earlier time).

Now, let's say that I pay the price, receive the car and want to get it checked out just to make sure everything is humky dorry. What happens if at that time the mechanic informs me the car doesn't have the engine it should have and the one that I paid for? DO I just sit and take it or do I complain to the seller? What if the seller doesn't respond? DO I then NOT complain to eBay and try and get a refund?

Again, as a seller on eBay, I take pains to try and list everything I know about an item I am selling and try to put a clear picture in my listing. However, even then, sometimes things happen that I either miss some damage or don't describe something properly or something happens in transit. Either way, as the seller, I feel obligated to make things right with the buyer. Because if I don't, I know a mess like this might occur (which damages my business and reputation) AND there is the chance that eBay will step in and rule against me no matter what.

In this instance, Todd bought a card he wasn't quite sure about (the GAI 7.5 grade giving the implication that the card was a full card but the GAI history giving him some concerns). When said card came back from SGC as trimmed, thus confirming Todd's questions about the card, Todd wanted a refund. When seller doesn't offer a refund (or even respond) Todd comes on here to warn others.

Again, if the seller had only refunded Todd's money and gone on, NONE of this would have happened. Todd would have his money back, the seller would have his card back (to sell again OR go after GAI with) and they wouldn't have a negative Feed Back.

Now, it looks like, if Todd is correct, eBay is going to rule against Carterscards, they are going to have to give the money back, they have received a negative and their name has been dragged through the mud on a public forum. So, even if other people don't read this forum, all someone has to do is Google Carterscards and this thread is going to appear on the search list.

David

Again, analogy is wrong.

You are now claiming, by your analogy, that the seller left out information that the card was trimmed (see bold above).

According to GAI, which is all that the seller could go on, the card was not trimmed. He didn't leave out the fact that the card was trimmed because he and GAI did not believe it was trimmed.

Incorrect analogy again.

[CMIZ5290]

David- good story, but i don't think you are comparing apples to apples.

[CMIZ5290]

Well said tony!

[ctownboy]

pgellis,

No, if the seller is making a concerted effort in the auction listing to state the card was graded early in GAI history (as the buyer says he was) then the implication is that the card has a much better chance of crossing over at or near that grade when sent in to SGC or PSA.

For the uninitiated or uninformed, just having the card graded by GAI might be good enough for them. Now, for someone more knowledgable about cards and grading companies, having the seller put in that the card was (supposedly) graded early in GAI history seems like a ploy to give increased confidence about the card.

In short, seller is hoping dumb person will spend big money just because the card is graded, no matter what company graded it. But, to help their cause, seller supplies more info so that smart buyer feels more comfortable bidding.

A multi-layered approach which lends credence to the theory that Carterscards knew what they were doing when listing and describing the card.

David

[ctownboy]

Bobby,

If sellers are concerned that their GAI cards are being purchased by people who are just going to send them in to SGC or PSA and try and have them cross over (and then sell them for a higher price) then why don't those sellers just send the card/s in to SGC or PSA themsleves?

Now, I can understand if somebody new to the hobby or who doesn't have a clue about grading companies is selling this card on eBay. I can see where they might not be aware that an SGC card will probably be worth more in this grade than a card in a GAI slab. I will cut those sellers some slack.

Howver, in this case, it seems that Carterscards is NOT a newby seller and that they KNEW that GAI cards graded early in the company's history have a better reputation than those graded at a later date. Thus, they played up that fact to try and get a higher selling price.

As I see it, Carterscards was HOPING whoever won their auction was "buying the slab and not the card" while also HOPING that the buyer didn't know about GIA's reputation.

In this case, they were wrong and have been called out on it.

David

[glchen]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

If sellers are concerned that their GAI cards are being purchased by people who are just going to send them in to SGC or PSA and try and have them cross over (and then sell them for a higher price) then why don't those sellers just send the card/s in to SGC or PSA themsleves?

This is a good point. However, one problem with this is that some sellers on ebay take consignments from others (e.g., just_collect, prewarsportscards, etc). Now are these sellers supposed to reject all GAI cards that come to them?

[mdschulze]

This thread has become more about the card, who graded it, what grade it received, blah, blah, blah... Let's forget the card for a minute and look at the basics: Buyer purchases an item and is unhappy, he then contacts the seller for a refund (which seems to be within a reasonable timeframe), thus far the seller hasn't issued a refund and now the buyer is upset.

I've bought and sold items on Ebay and I'll offer a refund to an unhappy buyer just out of moral obligation (both refunds I offered were damage to the items during shipping... once they sent me a photo of the damage, instant refund!). The question is how long can a buyer hold onto an item before they request a refund? If it's a product that can be used and damaged by neglect such as electronics, then the timeframe is shortened. In this case, it's a card in a plastic holder. I don't see any reason for the seller not to issue a refund, say within 45 days. I know the refund timeframe will differ from person to person but in this case it boils down to good business ethics and if nothing else... common courtesy. The seller will get the card back in the same condition he sold it in.... offer a second chance purchase to the next high bidder or relist! He'll still get around $1k for the card whether it's from Todd or from the next guy who wins it.

[bobbyw8469]

In this case, it's a card in a plastic holder. I don't see any reason for the seller not to issue a refund, say within 45 days

The problem with that, is that this WAS NOT a BIN, but rather an auction. What if the under bidder wanted a GAI card, and didn't win because the winning bidder wanted to play the "crackout game - let's get this into SGC holder and triple our money!". That is why most auction houses state NO RETURNS on graded cards, and I am in that camp as well. If I was the seller, I would not want to accept a return either.
Seller relists the card again, but because of so much negative publicity surrounding this card, this time it only sells for $500. Winning bidder pays, sends it to SGC for the upgrade, except this time SGC gives it an "88/7.5" same grade crossover. Now the card is worth the $3,000 and the seller only received $500. This card is going to be forever tainted as a 0% risk card for the buyer and a 100% liability for the seller. As long as the winning bidder submits it and it doesn't cross, he returns it for 100% refund. I am still not convinced the card is trimmed, as it was graded under the old GAI label when Mike Baker was looking at the cards....

[CMIZ5290]

45 days??? What the hell???

[CMIZ5290]

Mike- first of all, he will have no chance probably of getting that price because the card is tainted. Just look at this thread. Secondly, todd knew what the card was and the seller's no refund listing on the auction. If the card did cross to an sgc 88, i wonder if todd would send paul $2k for the difference in the value? I don't think so.

[mdschulze]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Mike- first of all, he will have no chance probably of getting that price because the card is tainted. Just look at this thread. Secondly, todd knew what the card was and the seller's no refund listing on the auction. If the card did cross to an sgc 88, i wonder if todd would send paul $2k for the difference in the value? I don't think so.

The seller listed no returns, so do I on all my listings. This doesn't mean if the buyer is unhappy with the item, for whatever reason (even if he needs the money back to pay a bill), that I won't disregard and say "never mind, buyer beware".... that's crap and in my opinion unethical. I will get my item back (unless it's busted due to shipping) and relist... no problem.

Net54 has a big following but I doubt every vintage card collector out there reads this forum. Is the card now tainted? Yes, to some degree, but only to those who read this thread.

I, as a seller on ebay, would not have a problem issuing a 45 day refund on a card that's in a sealed, plastic slab. A few people may disagree and say it's too lenient, some may disagree and say it should be longer, but I would like to think most would see me as being an honest seller. If I listed "No Returns" on an auction, then by law I shouldn't be obligated to accept a return (I understand that's not the case). Morally, I would say I'm on the hook. I would rather issue a refund and sleep well at night than to have to deal with my conscience down the road.... JMO

[jp1216]

My turn -

I say that no TPGC is 100% legit. When you buy a card over the internet - you take a chance. For me, 4 grading companies are recognized by eBay. GAI is/was one of them. If you buy a GAI/PSA/SGC/BVG card on eBay you are accepting the condition based on the TPGC. The seller is too. What if it was a PSA 7.5 that was rejected by SGC? Or a SGC 7.5 rejected by BVG?

Based on that, I'd say the buyer is liable. But the facts that the seller doesn't respond to emails and (apparently bids on his own auctions) - evens the playing field. A good seller would refund and move one. Use the TPGC as a defense, but respect the buyer and other TPGC determination.

So - IF the card is still in the GAI 7.5 slab - I say the seller should REFUND. If it isn't, I say - buyer owns the card. Good business. But not 100% necessary.

Good Thread - just keep it civil. The language and attacks are getting too much.

[ChiefBenderForever]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

The problem with that, is that this WAS NOT a BIN, but rather an auction. What if the under bidder wanted a GAI card, and didn't win because the winning bidder wanted to play the "crackout game - let's get this into SGC holder and triple our money!". That is why most auction houses state NO RETURNS on graded cards, and I am in that camp as well. If I was the seller, I would not want to accept a return either.

I hear what you are saying but the seller does not own ebay or paypal. If a buyer can return anything they wan't regardless if auction or BIN then sellers need to be prepared to deal with these situations. If not they might want to consider making their own website and not deal with Ebay, or buy a table at show and get cash in hand. Anything can be returned for any reason as long as it is the same as when bought, GAI, PRO, SGC, PSA, RAW. I'm sure there are many out there who play the bump game and if doesn't work return the card, but they will get blocked by seller after seller. The seller is using Ebay to make money, he has to deal with the issues that come with it along with their rules, and by not communicating got blasted. If he had just responded to Todd explaining he was sorry this happened but he does not except returns and feels bad none of this might have happened but he didn't so we will never know. You might not want to accept a return, but with Ebay/Paypal don't really have a choice. Refund and relist, happens all the time.

[quinnsryche]

I've held out long enough. My opinion (like anyone cares): you buy a graded card, unless it's been tampered with, that's it. If it's trimmed or mis-graded, that's on the grading company, not the seller. How is the seller responsible for what a TPG says? That's stupid. He offers an encapsulated card with a grade and sells it. Once it leaves his hands, he should be done. He doesn't owe the buyer one red cent (again, my opinion) if another grading company has another opinion. After hundreds of responses, I still can't believe people think the seller is responsible. Honestly, if I was the buyer, I never would have even considered returning it to the seller because it didn't cross to my liking. The only out the buyer has if is he thinks the card /holder was tampered with on the sellers end.
Thanks for listening.

[jezzeaepi]

People can have opinions all they want, but I think the ebay buyer protection terms and conditions are pretty clear. It doesnt really matter what you would do, or what a different auction house would do. Ebay has its own rules and you have follow those on ebay.

"What happens if a buyer believes an item is not authentic?

Items that are suspected of being counterfeit are covered by the eBay Buyer Protection Policy, subject to the above and these additional terms:

*

Sellers and buyers must work together in good faith during the resolution process to satisfy buyer concerns that an item may not be authentic. For example, sellers should provide the buyer with appropriate documentation or other assurances that the item is authentic, if such information is available.
*

Where the seller is not able to satisfy the buyer's concerns about the authenticity of an item, sellers agree that the buyer will typically have to return the item to the seller before getting a refund. Buyers agree that they will typically be required to return the item to the seller before getting a refund. Costs of return shipping will be paid by the buyer unless the buyer and seller agree otherwise. Where buyers are not required to return the item, buyers agree to cooperate with us to ensure the proper disposal of the item as described below. Due to the unresolved dispute regarding the authenticity of the item, sellers must not later list, advertise or offer for sale the item on any eBay site or service around the world (including our subsidiaries, joint ventures and other members of the eBay corporate family).
*

Generally, buyers will not be obligated to provide third-party confirmation that an item is counterfeit to open a case. Buyers should feel free, however, to seek such written confirmation from the manufacturer whenever they suspect that an item may be counterfeit. In cases where a buyer has written confirmation from the manufacturer that the item is counterfeit, or in any cases where eBay requests this confirmation, the buyer must send this information directly to us. We reserve the right to accept this written confirmation directly from other reliable third parties. Buyers agree to cooperate with us to ensure the proper disposal of counterfeit items. For example, buyers may be asked to destroy (and certify that the item has been destroyed), or send the item to the manufacturer or other appropriate third party for disposal. Any costs associated with this destruction or disposal may be paid by eBay, in our sole discretion.
*

Covered cases that meet the above conditions and are not excluded under this Policy may be considered as criteria, infringement or a violation by the seller of our prohibited and infringing items policy. As a result, we may impose sanctions on the seller, up to and including suspension of the seller's account."

If a card is counterfiet, then the buyer can return it. Simple. This card has been altered, or atleast in the opinion of the buyer(and a third party). Therefore they have grounds for returning said item within 45 days. Those are the rules. If you don't like them, don't sell on ebay.

[Tsaiko]

.....and by not communicating got blasted. If he had just responded to Todd explaining he was sorry this happened ....

Yes.
I just hate to see these unsettled transactions when I know that most of the people who participate in the hobby are well intentioned and honest, including the buyer and the seller in this matter, most likely.

Hopefully the seller wasn't in a coma or some other unavoidable detainment and suddenly wakes up to this thread