Beware Carterscards2006

[mdschulze]

The grade, grader, or grading company's liability isn't the issue here at all. If the buyer bought ANY item and decided he didn't want it for ANY reason, he/she should be able to get a full refund, period (unless the buyer damaged the item)! We could be talking about a shirt here instead of a card and it shouldn't change the buyer/seller ethics. JMO

[pgellis]

Originally Posted by mdschulze

The grade, grader, or grading company's liability isn't the issue here at all. If the buyer bought ANY item and decided he didn't want it for ANY reason, he/she should be able to get a full refund, period (unless the buyer damaged the item)! We could be talking about a shirt here instead of a card and it shouldn't change the buyer/seller ethics. JMO

You use the shirt example, so I will use the car example. Can you purchase a vehicle and then drive it home and decide the next day that it isn't for you and then you can just bring it back to the dealer for a full refund? Answer: NO

[Peter_Spaeth]

If the condition of the item is unchanged, and a buyer is unhappy and promptly requests a refund, a good seller should accomodate as a matter of good business practice.

As a legal claim, while I am sympathetic to Todd and have been there myself on more than one occasion, I think Todd has a tough time if all he has is a second opinion that the card is trimmed, because the seller did not (in my view) impliedly warrant that other TPGs would share GAI's opinion, and (as far as I know) Todd did not ask for that guaranty. The seller sold the value of GAI's opinion. If he was selling SGC's opinion it might have been worth more. That said, Todd is a good lawyer and I am sure he has good counterarguments to this analysis.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by mdschulze

The grade, grader, or grading company's liability isn't the issue here at all. If the buyer bought ANY item and decided he didn't want it for ANY reason, he/she should be able to get a full refund, period (unless the buyer damaged the item)! We could be talking about a shirt here instead of a card and it shouldn't change the buyer/seller ethics. JMO

People are forgetting the fact that this was NOT a purchase, it was an auction. If it was a BIN, I might agree that the buyer has a right to change his mind and return. However, allowing returns on an auction is not fair to the other bidders who could have won the auction and would have been completely happy with the card.

[mdschulze]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

People are forgetting the fact that this was NOT a purchase, it was an auction. If it was a BIN, I might agree that the buyer has a right to change his mind and return. However, allowing returns on an auction is not fair to the other bidders who could have won the auction and would have been completely happy with the card.

Good point! If I were the seller, I would gladly accept the return, refund the money, then relist. This would probably save a neg feedback mark as well.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by mdschulze

Good point! If I were the seller, I would gladly accept the return, refund the money, then relist. This would probably save a neg feedback mark as well.

Actually it's too late. The OP already left a neutral.

[mdschulze]

I've sold several items on Ebay in the past and have had a couple come back and bite me (both were damaged during shipping). I ended up refunding the buyers upon receiving proof of the damaged items... and I received positive feedback on both transactions. For me, it's a matter of doing good business. The seller in this case could either relist the card or offer as a second chance purchase for the next high bidder. JMO

[nolemmings]

Well this sure has been fun. I started out warning you of a seller who was unresponsive, which was followed by evidence (and I have more)showing him to be questionable, and now I see it's back on me. That's fine, I'll deal with it in my own way, and I thank those who have supported me, although again, that was not my purpose in posting.

Peter, sorry to disagree, and I repeat my statement that SGC is in many ways irrelevant here. If I stand here before you and swear that card was trimmed and can prove it, then the seller sold me an altered card, not measuring up to the minimum expected in the hobby, regardless if I ever sent it to SGC for a second opinion. The seller at least implicitly warranted that the card was authentic and unaltered, and if I can prove otherwise, he is on the hook as far as I'm concerned. It wouldn't matter if it was an SGC card that was trimmed, or PSA (gasp). If I can prove it was altered, seller loses, unless at a minimum he can show he expressly disclaimed alterations and had no knowledge. Again, that is because anyone buying a graded card has a reasonable expectation that it is authentic and unaltered--unless expressly stated otherwise. I'm confident the law will back me up on that. So assume for argument it was an SGC card and PSA said it was trimmed-- if I can convince a trier of fact that the card was altered, under these circumstances I should win. That may rock some people's world, but that is how it would play out, IMHO.

Now the reason no one ever analyzes this more fully, in my opinion, is because they immediately leap to the conclusion that I cannot "prove" a card was trimmed unless some certain number of experts backs me up-- I love the earlier post stating that it's currently tied at 1-1. Cards are rarely worth the trouble and expense of litigation, and many here are not lawyers. They lick their wounds and chalk it up as a lesson, often blaming themselves. Me, I don't lay down. If you sold me an altered card, I will do what I can to undo your damage, simple as that. If a court does not believe I have proved my case, then I lose--no surprise there. I'll take my chances, and I have a pretty fair idea of what I am doing.

I hope to later post as to what I think should happen in the marketplace, but I recognize that few people ask my opinion and that I will not likely be a great influence on the matter in the long run. At this point, I would only state that when I sell, I offer a minimum 20 and sometimes 30 day return privilege, no questions asked, so long as the card is returned in the condition I shipped it. I would extend that even longer if reasonable or if that's what becomes normal in the marketplace, because I stand behind my sales. IMO, sellers need to learn that this is good business practice, and that if you've avoided it thus far it is more likely because people did not want to incur the hassle than any kind of legal or moral notion that you are in the right to get away with selling crap. The law will catch up with you eventually, and ever-growing consumer protections will make right what is right.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Todd:

I respectfully disagree with you as to the nature of what the seller of a TPG graded card is representing in today's marketplace. The whole point of TPG is to provide an OPINION as to a card's authenticity and grade, in a domain where outside of obvious cases these issues are essentially matters of opinion and inference. The very fact that TPG flourishes is a testament to the marketplace's collective discomfort with authenticating its own cards. As a result, that TPG opinion has a certain value in the marketplace, according to how reliable the market thnks the TPG is. Thus, if I sell a PSA 8, I am not personally representing that the card is authentic, I am representing that PSA thinks it's authentic and that it is in NM/MT condition -- how the hell do I know, especially when it's inside a holder?

PS If the card is so OBVIOUSLY trimmed such that any dealer should have known, that might be different, because perhaps one could infer deceptive intent.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

Hi Todd,

Your situation really sucks.

I really love threads like this when so many people jump to conclusions by reading what they think you wrote instead of what actually was written or make responses to the threads without thoroughly reading them.

Oh the Joys.

My best to you Todd, and if the people don't realize that the seller is suspect keep buying from him if nothing else you will get the card you bid just paying more than you should. Shill bidding sellers are always great until they get busted and then if you had bought from him you have to wonder how much he actually stole from you.

Todd,It's looks like a redo in Baltimore in 2012. I promise I will let you buy the seats to the Orioles game this time.

Lee

[nolemmings]

Hey Lee, you made my day, which is an expression of choice as I am currently watching Clint in "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly" in the TV Room and walked by the computer on my way to the kitchen for my last beer. Good, bad and ugly is so apropos right now. But yes, thanks for stating here in front of God and everyone that you'll let me buy the tix in Baltimore next time. Now I won't harp on the fact that your choice of seats barely had us in the ballpark and right under speakers that were 3 times louder than what I've been subjected to at a Springsteen concert. Hope the T202s are treating you well, and I'll pester you for some Twins tix if I make it back to Sota this season.

Spaeth, I'll deal with you later

Novakjr, please allow me to have a different opinion of what the law would require in proving my case.

[mintacular]

how many extraneous comments are made to buttress the OP's grievance (Carter's is a shill bidder, he touted GAI 1st generation, he didn't respond to my emails, Todd is a great guy, etc.) when none of that crap is really relevant to the issue, now is it?

Maybe Carters is a POS but none of that really matters when it comes to the issue posed by the OP which is that he bought a card by a 2nd-Tier grading co. (now) and is having to face the fact that it did not cross over by a TPG w/a numerical grade and may likely be trimmed.

If the OP really wants his pound of flesh it needs to be from GAI, not Carters.

[novakjr]

And before we get too carried away with the shilling stuff....I will admit that the 97% bid history from that one guy looks suspicious. Let's not jump to too many conclusions though, anything's possible. With the exception of that SGC Cobb, the guy seems to only be targeting high grade PSA stuff. But then again his only two other auctions won are a signed tennis racket and that ridiculous Kobe Bryant shirt.

But looking at your auction, there was clearly no shilling involved.

I must also point out that Todd has an 81% bid history with this seller...Todd, have you been one of his shill partners?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Reasonable people are explaining to you why the seller is not at fault here and you just refuse to listen. I'll approach this from another angle. True story: I bought the following card from another very reputable board member a couple of months ago. I absolutely despise PSA so I had it crossed over to SGC. It came back a full grade lower - was a 7 came back a 6. Do I take this up with the seller? After all, he advertised it as NM and it came back as Ex/Mt, which are 2 totally different grades. According to your logic he is clearly at fault, right?


The seller's own scan:



My own pic:

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

The seller at least implicitly warranted that the card was authentic and unaltered,

I disagree. The seller implicitly warranted that the card was deemed authentic and unaltered by GAI. Nothing more, nothing less. It still comes back to "you received exactly what was being sold".

Now legally, unless you can prove that the seller knew that the card was trimmed, you're kinda stuck. Plus the auction clearly stated "no returns accepted". Believe it or not, the ebay auction are technically a legally binding contract that you enter into upon bidding. If it says no returns, then the seller is not legally required to accept returns for any reason, unless you can prove intent to deceive.

Also, I'm kind of offended by the way you threw this seller under the bus... Coming in here all guns a blazing that this guy ripped you off. A simple, "hey, what would you guys do" without mentioning names, would've been more than enough to start things off. You've basically attempted to create a public perception that he's out there ripping people off left and right..

I'm sure everyone in here, deep down, wants to have your back in this situation, and neither of you are necessarily right or wrong. BUT the reason some people in here are siding with the seller, is because of the way you approached all of this. Please understand that it's nothing personal though.

We all get bit sometimes, it's the nature of the game.

Anyways, just from looking at the card, I can't tell if it's trimmed or not, but am I the only that's noticing that it might be slightly diamond cut?