The Value of the 8.5 Grade--One of My Largest Trades Ever

[Leon]

Well, so far no one has been maimed or harmed physically so I think we are off to a good start in this debate. On the high grade card / trimming debate, I too think a lot are tainted, and I won't try to quantify except to say maybe more than 10%, of highly graded (8s and up) cards probably have issues. That is just a seat of the pants feel and a low estimate on my part. Again, just from my bit of experience in the hobby. As for the govt. shutting down a company that would potentially grade the graders....nah, as long as they don't break a law they could do it. It's been done for years in the coin hobby already...CAC-

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[barrysloate]

In theory, third party grading and authenticating is a wonderful thing. If it works right it provides a tremendous level of confidence to buyers and sellers alike. But in the real world it desperately needs an overhaul.

[E93]

We seem to be re-hashing old conversations here, which is fine. It is probably healthy to discuss them periodically.

One issue that has not come up yet in this round is that it is not ONLY high grade cards that are altered. It is any card that the doctor finds it worth his/her time to doctor. In other words, if there is financial incentive to work a PSA 3 card like a T206 Cobb into a PSA 4, doctors will do it. If one only looks carefully at PSA 8s, people are going to miss a big part of the altered card community. It is about financial incentive and nothing else. If a doctor can take a light wrinkle out of a '33 Goudey Ruth and it becomes a 5 rather than a 3, there is a big payoff.

Some people enjoy singling out high-grade cards in this discussion, but the truth is that it happens on all levels.
JimB

[Peter_Spaeth]

What JimB says is undoubtedly true, but in my opinion trimming -- which probably most of us consider the most offensive type of alteration -- probably affects higher grade cards more than low to medium.

[barrysloate]

Jim is right that mid-grade cards are altered too, but it probably entails removing a crease or something like that. If a card is trimmed, it surely will end up with square corners, hence a high grade.

Wherever there is easy money to be made there will be someone out there figuring out the best way to do it. If spooning a crease can turn a 3 into a 4, there's plenty of incentive to do it.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What JimB says is undoubtedly true, but in my opinion trimming -- which probably most of us consider the most offensive type of alteration -- probably affects higher grade cards more than low to medium.

I absolutely agree with this....no doubt some lesser graded cards are altered but not the extent of the more highly graded ones. I worry very little about my 1's-3's.....though understand they could have had one of their many creases removed or one of their super rounded corners trimmed at one time....I am very comfortable the way I collect just as I hope everyone else is too. I think Corey made a good point about provenance too.

How many of the people defending high grade cards would be comfortable owning a mini-T206 from the Harris collection, in a high grade holder?

[calvindog]

Fact: there are a ton of graded cards which have been trimmed, the majority in high grades.

And hearing that Jim seems to get special treatment from PSA I shudder to ask: does anyone think it possible that PSA grader/graders have ever taken a bribe?

[Davalillo]

I would reiterate my opinion that the view that a substantial percentage of pre-war cards graded psa 8 or sgc 88 have been altered is a view that is limited to a few people on this board and buy in large they don't buy high end graded cards. So for the sake of argument who cares what they think when it comes to the market. Furthermore, the idea that that an independent third party grader needs to come in and authenticate the graded cards is crazy because the people who are buying the high end graded cards don't see it as a problem.

I would not pay more for a card that is authenticated by a third party and I doubt if anyone else who is truly buying cards would either. I really don't want to know how many of my 30,000 cards are altered in some way. I believe not many. I remember sending an e-mail a couple of years ago to a huge buyer of vintage 8s and 9s and asking him if he was concerned. He relied that he did not care if the cards that were 8s or 9s were altered or not and that PSA gets it right the vast majority of the time and if there were some altered cards in psa 8 or 9 holders big deal.

I also am of the belief that if one includes all types of alteration, that low-to-mid grade cards have a higher percentage altered than high grade. Although as I remember in the past Greg told me I was wrong here so if he says I am perhaps I am?

Lastly, and forgive me Leon if I am misrepresenting a private conversation, but at the National Leon asked me why don't you come back to net 54--the board needs a little life and you could provide it. I replied that I was sick of the arguments. Leon said it was a whole different board and everybody got along. So I'm back and this is fine. I know I bring a different point of view than most people on this board who have hated graded cards from day one but thats the way I collect and I love it. And I agree with Leon who says in effect "its all good".

[Davalillo]

JUeff,

I think you're wrong but you are right about so many things on your radio show I will let this slide.

What I can't let slide is your comment I get special treatment from PSA--as you know they give different rates to all submitters depending on volume and to resubmitters as well. If you are referring to the Evers card that was with SGC not PSA.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Uh, Jim, a couple of years back weren't you leading the charge against altered cards, calling on auction houses to state their policies, demanding that grading companies improve their quality control, stating that you would not buy an expensive card without Kevin Saucier's independent assessment, and so forth? I am sure I can find some of your old posts in that regard. Why the change of mind?

E.g.:

07-23-2007, 08:02 PM
Archive
Administrator Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,918

If you could improve the hobby, what would you do

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted By: JimCrandell
1)Force the large grading companies to improve their standards.
2)For those caught restoring or trimming cards mandatory jail time.
3)Force the auction houses to disclose whether they have altered a card before it is up for auction.
4)If dealers knowingly sell altered cards, they are banned from the hobby.

[calvindog]

Jim, I didn't mean to suggest that you have any inappropriate relationship with a grading company, I just was responding to what I thought was your implication about special treatment due to you being a great customer. As to my claim that there is a flood of high-grade trimmed cards in the market, this is based on first-hand knowledge, not speculation. Of course, when I speculate sometimes I'm even right such as the time i claimed years ago that Mastro Auctions was engaging in massive shill bidding and I was shouted down here by every high and mighty idiot on the board.

And yes, you missed my damn show yesterday--and I even talked sports for a couple segments! Every Saturday now from 10 to noon.

[Anthony S.]

Originally Posted by Davalillo

I would reiterate my opinion that the view that a substantial percentage of pre-war cards graded psa 8 or sgc 88 have been altered is a view that is limited to a few people on this board and buy in large they don't buy high end graded cards. So for the sake of argument who cares what they think when it comes to the market.

This would make a great poll question. My guess would be that far more than a few people on this board think a substantial percentage of pre-war psa 8 and sgc 88's have been altered.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jim, I think the difference between us is I believe trimming and other alterations are significantly more widespread than you do, particularly at the higher grades in prewar and in low pop commons. I state this based on personal observation of many cards, limited crossover/crackout experience as well as the experience of others which I assume was accurately reported to me, common sense, and conversations with many knowledgeable people that I might be inclined to discredit singly but that corroborate each other as to who the culprits in the hobby are and the extent of what they have done. What is the basis for your belief?

[Davalillo]

Anthony,

Maybe so--I was not following the board for 18 months. I guess a better point would be is that since net54 is generally an anti-PSA message board, that the percentage of high end psa graded cards that are bought from posters here is very few. So from the standpoint of the market it doesn't really matter what people here think as they don't buy the cards anyway.

Jim

[barrysloate]

Jim- did you get a chance to read the book "Mint Condition" by Dave Jamieson? There's a chapter in there where Jamieson and Kevin Saucier spend a day together. The whole book is good, but if you read only a part of it read that chapter. It's quite interesting.

And you made a point worth merit when you related a conversation with a top collector of 8's and 9's. You said he knows some of his cards are altered, but he doesn't care. That says a lot to me about the phenomenon: some collectors just don't care. If the label reads "9" all is well in the world.

[vintagecpa]

Welcome back to the board Jim, lol. Unfortunately, you collect in a universe few of us lower-budget collectors can even comprehend. I know I've only ever owned a handful of psa 7-8 cards, so it would be difficult for me to have an informed conversation with someone that owns 20,000+. It would be interesting to know how many of these cards have been altered in the past, or even how many of them were produced years later (fro joy plate rumor). Perhaps one day, there will be a need for a professional forensic service if the collecting public demands to know the truth. But at the end of the day, it still is just an expensive hobby where people are simply trying to keep a keep a part of their childhood alive.