The Value of the 8.5 Grade--One of My Largest Trades Ever

[Davalillo]

That a majority or even a substantial minority of psa or sgc graded cards that have been altered is a figment of your imagination and perhaps a few more people with active imaginations here. Apparently it is based solely on that you didn't see many high grade vintage cards when you were younger. Well there aren't many--that's why they are worth so much. I also find it near impossible to believe that someone would pay extra to have an independent review of a psa or sgc graded card.

As to whether if you break out a card to resubmit and it come back altered, you might have a tough time convincing psa that it is the same card. If a grading company reviews a slabbed card in the slab and considers it altered, I think its a negotiation. I had a T206 Evers Portrait that upon review by the grading company was deemed as trimmed and the company gave me back my full value. Of course I am a pretty good customer.

[shimozukawa]

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[barrysloate]

Jim- I know you are one of the biggest PSA collectors in the hobby, and I do have a lot of respect for you, but I'm not sure the statements by Corey and others are such a figment. I never dealt in as many high grade cards as some of the bigger dealers, but in the years I conducted auctions I handled my share. And I have to say what I saw all too often was quite alarming. I think the quality control of the grading companies could be a lot better. And I'll leave it at that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am not smart enough to follow shimozukowa's math, but I think it may not take into account that people will resubmt doctored cards of high value again and again until they get slabbed. Does anyone have a copy of REA's email, I think it may have been 2006, concerning auction house practices of "working on" cards before submitting, that might be interesting to re-read in this context.

[benjulmag]

When you have the largest third party grading company turning a blind eye on re submissions to bump downs, the entire concept of third party grading has failed, and IMO in time the market will reflect that. I will not consider buying a high-grade slabbed card without either knowing the provenance or seeking another opinion the card has been recently re examined and confirmed not to be doctored. I do this not to give myself extra work, but rather because I believe it is prudent to do so. If I had a stack of PSA 8 T206's known to have been slabbed in the early days of grading that I was looking to sell, and I knew I could get a letter from an individual/entity respected in the hobby opining that the cards, upon re examination, have not been doctored, I believe that stack of cards would fetch a higher price with such a letter than without. IF that is correct, then the market forces are in play for the creation of such a service.

EDITED to add that I'm talking here not about a bump down from an 8 to a 7.5, where the loss of value would not necessarily be significant. I'm referring instead to a bump down from an 8 to an A, where the value of the A would be a small fraction of the 8. Unless a prospective purchaser truly felt the chances of the 8 being altered is very small, the weighted value of the card after the perceived risk of alteration is taken into account would be materially less than the card valued as an 8. Under such a scenario, it would be prudent for the prospective purchaser to demand some new corroboration the card is unaltered. And if the seller refused to obtain it, he would be at a competitive disadvantage to another seller of the same card who was willing to provide such a corroboration.

[Leon]

Well, so far no one has been maimed or harmed physically so I think we are off to a good start in this debate. On the high grade card / trimming debate, I too think a lot are tainted, and I won't try to quantify except to say maybe more than 10%, of highly graded (8s and up) cards probably have issues. That is just a seat of the pants feel and a low estimate on my part. Again, just from my bit of experience in the hobby. As for the govt. shutting down a company that would potentially grade the graders....nah, as long as they don't break a law they could do it. It's been done for years in the coin hobby already...CAC-

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[barrysloate]

In theory, third party grading and authenticating is a wonderful thing. If it works right it provides a tremendous level of confidence to buyers and sellers alike. But in the real world it desperately needs an overhaul.

[E93]

We seem to be re-hashing old conversations here, which is fine. It is probably healthy to discuss them periodically.

One issue that has not come up yet in this round is that it is not ONLY high grade cards that are altered. It is any card that the doctor finds it worth his/her time to doctor. In other words, if there is financial incentive to work a PSA 3 card like a T206 Cobb into a PSA 4, doctors will do it. If one only looks carefully at PSA 8s, people are going to miss a big part of the altered card community. It is about financial incentive and nothing else. If a doctor can take a light wrinkle out of a '33 Goudey Ruth and it becomes a 5 rather than a 3, there is a big payoff.

Some people enjoy singling out high-grade cards in this discussion, but the truth is that it happens on all levels.
JimB

[Peter_Spaeth]

What JimB says is undoubtedly true, but in my opinion trimming -- which probably most of us consider the most offensive type of alteration -- probably affects higher grade cards more than low to medium.

[botn]

Originally Posted by Davalillo

As to whether if you break out a card to resubmit and it come back altered, you might have a tough time convincing psa that it is the same card.

That is the Catch 22. In the holder both SGC and PSA will almost always stand behind the grade. The more expensive the card the less likely they are to consider a buy back. Ultimately a buy back is going to be determined by one's stature in the hobby or likelihood to file suit. And I doubt anyone is filing suit.

If one breaks out the card, which in most cases is really the only way to prove a card is altered, they void the guaranty and most certainly the TPG would have to disclaim any liability in having initially assigned a grade. That is why they can offer that fabulous guaranty--they rarely have to use it.

It is a good thing that most collectors do not want to know if their SGC and PSA graded cards are unaltered. It would change the landscape of the hobby if collectors actually considered it.

[bbeck]

Originally Posted by Davalillo

That a majority or even a substantial minority of psa or sgc graded cards that have been altered is a figment of your imagination and perhaps a few more people with active imaginations here. Apparently it is based solely on that you didn't see many high grade vintage cards when you were younger. Well there aren't many--that's why they are worth so much. I also find it near impossible to believe that someone would pay extra to have an independent review of a psa or sgc graded card.

As to whether if you break out a card to resubmit and it come back altered, you might have a tough time convincing psa that it is the same card. If a grading company reviews a slabbed card in the slab and considers it altered, I think its a negotiation. I had a T206 Evers Portrait that upon review by the grading company was deemed as trimmed and the company gave me back my full value. Of course I am a pretty good customer.

I agree 100% that PSA would have major difficulties believing customers stating their resubmitted cards were once in high grade holders and are now doctored (Although they did believe me). Besides yourself, I may be one of the most pro PSA supporters on this board. I have had many positive experiences with PSA and think the company has one of the most accessible Presidents you will ever find. He does a good job in a very difficult business. I also believe their are many shady characters in this business who are very good at what they do. I think I have a handle on some but do not know them all. I have collected since 1975 and owned my own store since 1991. The Rose card opened my eyes and I knew who I purchased it from. It was a small monetary hit but nevertheless a hit and a disappointment. I have followed the buying patterns of a few ebay dealers who deal in low pop or consistently high end cards. I will not buy from them on gut feeling. Others, I feel comfortable with. The problem is, who knows how many times these cards have changed hands or what auction houses have them in their current offering. I do not think I have an active imagination, just a realist. I am fortunate that I have submitted a fair amount of my own material. The rest I put my faith in the grading company. I think Barry's comments are right on the nose.