The Value of the 8.5 Grade--One of My Largest Trades Ever

[Peter_Spaeth]

In many aspects of life wishful thinking often trumps reason. So too with some collectors.

[Davalillo]

The above commets by Benjulmag are some of the most ridiculous I have seen in my life.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Davalillo

The above commets by Benjulmag are some of the most ridiculous I have seen in my life.

I am sure that eventually folks will remember to put their names by their posts or just put it in your signature and never worry about it. Jim- would you like me to do that for you, since I know your techy skills aren't that of an IT guy? You are welcome to say almost anything you want to, your name just needs to be by it...lmk and I will put it there for you....or you would need to edit out your comments. Corey has his name out there as I do....and many others..nothing personal......regards

[Davalillo]

Sorry did not know-you can use my name..

[Peter_Spaeth]

A PSA 8 from the Harris Collection, auctioned by REA with Rob expressing his opinion that the card was trimmed.

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2009/248.html

[shimozukawa]

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[Leon]

Originally Posted by shimozukawa

Leon, I think Jim has his name on his ID tag. At least, it's there now. I am pretty sure it was there on his older posts, too.

It wasn't there. I put it there for him. Had it been there I wouldn't have asked, though infrequently I could miss a name....I guess....

[shimozukawa]

.

[botn]

I know this board is very supportive of SGC but as someone who breaks out thousands of SGC and PSA graded cards each year I can tell you the percentages of cards which do not grade again is pretty close to equal. Even if you have a great eye for detecting alterations sometimes you do not know a card is really altered until it gets rejected upon resubmission.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Davalillo

The above commets by Benjulmag are some of the most ridiculous I have seen in my life.

Maybe so. But at least it can be said I'm making them with no economic stake in whether I am right or wrong. The only high grade PSA's I own are N28's and they have an impeccable provenance. By your own admission you have 20,000 high-grade slabbed PSA cards. In addition, I have the perspective of knowing first hand what existed many years ago before there was an economic incentive to doctor. I believe there is a sound basis to believe a significant percentage of high-grade PSA's of certain issues are doctored. And if in fact that is the case, I believe the wishful thinking is believing that some day the s@@@ will not hit the fan.

As to the insightful comments by shimozukawa, I can forsee a day when there will come into being a company whose sole purpose will be to re-certify grades by PSA and SGC. Market forces will compel the creation of such a company because its certifcation will be the best way for a slabbed card to retain its value, especially a card that did not receive the half-grade bump up (signaling that PSA was not willing to reconfirm that the card was not doctored). After all, if you're considering buying one of two PSA 8's of the same card, wouldn't you be willing be to pay more for the card (all other things being equal in regard to centering, registration, etc.) that comes with additional credible certification that the card has not been doctored. Not being a grading company in the sense of providing any other service other than opining whether PSA or SGC got it right in regard to doctoring, such a company will have considerably less economic incentive than PSA or SGC to be anything but impartial. And that is the key -- getting an opinion from someone who derives no economic benefit from what he is opining. That stands in contrast to the grading companies. PSA will have an economic incentive to confirm a card in its holder has not been doctored because that way they will not have to buy back the card. Likewise, one can credibly argue that SGC will have an economic incentive when reviewing PSA slabbed cards to want to find doctoring.

[Davalillo]

That a majority or even a substantial minority of psa or sgc graded cards that have been altered is a figment of your imagination and perhaps a few more people with active imaginations here. Apparently it is based solely on that you didn't see many high grade vintage cards when you were younger. Well there aren't many--that's why they are worth so much. I also find it near impossible to believe that someone would pay extra to have an independent review of a psa or sgc graded card.

As to whether if you break out a card to resubmit and it come back altered, you might have a tough time convincing psa that it is the same card. If a grading company reviews a slabbed card in the slab and considers it altered, I think its a negotiation. I had a T206 Evers Portrait that upon review by the grading company was deemed as trimmed and the company gave me back my full value. Of course I am a pretty good customer.

[shimozukawa]

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[barrysloate]

Jim- I know you are one of the biggest PSA collectors in the hobby, and I do have a lot of respect for you, but I'm not sure the statements by Corey and others are such a figment. I never dealt in as many high grade cards as some of the bigger dealers, but in the years I conducted auctions I handled my share. And I have to say what I saw all too often was quite alarming. I think the quality control of the grading companies could be a lot better. And I'll leave it at that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am not smart enough to follow shimozukowa's math, but I think it may not take into account that people will resubmt doctored cards of high value again and again until they get slabbed. Does anyone have a copy of REA's email, I think it may have been 2006, concerning auction house practices of "working on" cards before submitting, that might be interesting to re-read in this context.

[botn]

Originally Posted by Davalillo

As to whether if you break out a card to resubmit and it come back altered, you might have a tough time convincing psa that it is the same card.

That is the Catch 22. In the holder both SGC and PSA will almost always stand behind the grade. The more expensive the card the less likely they are to consider a buy back. Ultimately a buy back is going to be determined by one's stature in the hobby or likelihood to file suit. And I doubt anyone is filing suit.

If one breaks out the card, which in most cases is really the only way to prove a card is altered, they void the guaranty and most certainly the TPG would have to disclaim any liability in having initially assigned a grade. That is why they can offer that fabulous guaranty--they rarely have to use it.

It is a good thing that most collectors do not want to know if their SGC and PSA graded cards are unaltered. It would change the landscape of the hobby if collectors actually considered it.

[bbeck]

Originally Posted by Davalillo

That a majority or even a substantial minority of psa or sgc graded cards that have been altered is a figment of your imagination and perhaps a few more people with active imaginations here. Apparently it is based solely on that you didn't see many high grade vintage cards when you were younger. Well there aren't many--that's why they are worth so much. I also find it near impossible to believe that someone would pay extra to have an independent review of a psa or sgc graded card.

As to whether if you break out a card to resubmit and it come back altered, you might have a tough time convincing psa that it is the same card. If a grading company reviews a slabbed card in the slab and considers it altered, I think its a negotiation. I had a T206 Evers Portrait that upon review by the grading company was deemed as trimmed and the company gave me back my full value. Of course I am a pretty good customer.

I agree 100% that PSA would have major difficulties believing customers stating their resubmitted cards were once in high grade holders and are now doctored (Although they did believe me). Besides yourself, I may be one of the most pro PSA supporters on this board. I have had many positive experiences with PSA and think the company has one of the most accessible Presidents you will ever find. He does a good job in a very difficult business. I also believe their are many shady characters in this business who are very good at what they do. I think I have a handle on some but do not know them all. I have collected since 1975 and owned my own store since 1991. The Rose card opened my eyes and I knew who I purchased it from. It was a small monetary hit but nevertheless a hit and a disappointment. I have followed the buying patterns of a few ebay dealers who deal in low pop or consistently high end cards. I will not buy from them on gut feeling. Others, I feel comfortable with. The problem is, who knows how many times these cards have changed hands or what auction houses have them in their current offering. I do not think I have an active imagination, just a realist. I am fortunate that I have submitted a fair amount of my own material. The rest I put my faith in the grading company. I think Barry's comments are right on the nose.