Great thread, what about most under rated pre-war player?

Kenny Cole · #1 01-20-2011, 08:23 AM

Peter,

Unlike Travis, Doc Gooden's problems were largely self-inflicted so he doesn't really fit the bill. Conseco, were it not for the steroid issue (again self-inflicted) has a halfway decent case for the hall.

Surely you can come up with better examples than that when explaining why someone who showed absolutely no signs of slowing down -- someone who led the league in hits and hit .359 (second in the league) the year before he entered the service -- someone who had finished in the top ten in average 4 out of the 5 years immediately preceding his induction into the service -- would nonetheless, for some inexplicable reason that you cannot articulate,
have fallen flat on his face during the prime years of his career had he not gone off to fight for his country.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, but I suggest that my hypothesis -- which is that he would have continued to play at a consistently high level during the four years that he missed -- is more supportable than your theory that something "might" have happened to cause that not to occurr.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 01-20-2011, 09:06 AM

You are misstating the issue. Of course it's more likely that he would have continued. But as long as there is a doubt, I can't give him the benefit of that doubt. And there is a doubt, because it does happen that players go south. I will try to think of more examples. Perhaps you can explain why he never received a vote?

Peter_Spaeth · #3 01-20-2011, 09:10 AM

Eric Davis. Darryl Strawberry.

D. Bergin · #4 01-20-2011, 09:30 AM

Gary Templeton, Ralph Garr, Carlos Baerga

I'm sure the list could go on and on.

Kenny Cole · #5 01-20-2011, 09:43 AM

Unlike Travis, Eric Davis' career was derailed by consistent injuries -- a function of the game he was playing. I've already said that I don't give credit for that. Darryl Strawberry's career was derailed by Darryl Strawberry. He doesn't get credit for screwing himself.

However, the Cecil Travis situation is pretty much unique. The only other ballplayer I can think of whose situation is even arguably similar is Dom DiMaggio, and he too has supporters who think he should be elected to the HOF.

If you use some of Bill James' statistical projection techniques, Travis projects out to about 2800 hits and a .320+ average if he doesn't go off to war and get frostbite during the Battle of the Bulge. Those are pretty special numbers for anyone, let alone a guy who spent a lot of time at SS. He didn't post those numbers, but to me, the biggest question is why?

Cecil Travis' situation is a function of things beyond his control. If Cecil Travis dies in a car wreck in 1942, we can talk about what might have been but the context is different. He didn't die, he didn't get hurt playing baseball, he didn't hurt himself with unhealthy personal habits, and his skills as a baseball player didn't suddenly decline. His best years were effectively stolen from him by a war and the effects of a war.

To me, that is an entirely different scenario than loss of a skill set due to injury, apathy or self-abuse. However, you, and evidently the BBWAA, take the position that it doesn't matter why his numbers aren't what they should have been. I simply disagree with that analysis.

Peter_Spaeth · #6 01-20-2011, 09:49 AM

It doesn't matter to me why he didn't post the numbers, correct. The fact is, he didn't post them, and it is unreasonable to give him credit for numbers he didn't post. Baseball is too uncertain a game; too many variables.

Kenny Cole · #7 01-20-2011, 09:56 AM

That's the same type of analysis that was used as an argument against inducting the Negro Leaguers. We don't really know what their numbers were, they didn't post them in the majors, and it doesn't matter why. IMO, it does matter why. That's where you and I absolutely disagree.

D. Bergin · #8 01-20-2011, 10:08 AM

Did Cecil Travis have injury problems before the war, or was he a defensive liability...........because he only topped 140 games played twice in his career?

His career seems to track very similar to Bill Madlock, with less pop.

Peter_Spaeth · #9 01-20-2011, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

That's the same type of analysis that was used as an argument against inducting the Negro Leaguers. We don't really know what their numbers were, they didn't post them in the majors, and it doesn't matter why. IMO, it does matter why. That's where you and I absolutely disagree.

Oh come on Kenny, that is not analagous and you know it. There is a world of difference between guys that actually played and having imperfect statistics which can be supplemented with eyewitness testimony of fans and fellow players and contemporaneous press coverage, and speculating about how someone MIGHT have done IF he had played.

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