Great thread, what about most under rated pre-war player?

[Kenny Cole]

That's the same type of analysis that was used as an argument against inducting the Negro Leaguers. We don't really know what their numbers were, they didn't post them in the majors, and it doesn't matter why. IMO, it does matter why. That's where you and I absolutely disagree.

[D. Bergin]

Did Cecil Travis have injury problems before the war, or was he a defensive liability...........because he only topped 140 games played twice in his career?

His career seems to track very similar to Bill Madlock, with less pop.

[Kenny Cole]

I don't get the sense that he suffered significant injury problems. He had well over 500 plate appearances every year after his first full season, when he had 400+.

I don't know how he was regarded as a fielder. His range factor and assists were pretty decent most years, but he made a fair amount of errors too. My impression, and it is simply that, is that he was average to above-average as a fielder. Never the best, but far from the worst.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

That's the same type of analysis that was used as an argument against inducting the Negro Leaguers. We don't really know what their numbers were, they didn't post them in the majors, and it doesn't matter why. IMO, it does matter why. That's where you and I absolutely disagree.

Oh come on Kenny, that is not analagous and you know it. There is a world of difference between guys that actually played and having imperfect statistics which can be supplemented with eyewitness testimony of fans and fellow players and contemporaneous press coverage, and speculating about how someone MIGHT have done IF he had played.

[Kenny Cole]

"It doesn't matter to me why he didn't post the numbers, correct. The fact is, he didn't post them, and it is unreasonable to give him credit for numbers he didn't post." That was your statement.

That is precisely the analysis that was used to support the exclusion of the Negro Leaguers from the hall. The numbers, to the extent they existed at all, were suspect because they weren't compiled against major leaguers.

Ironically, that analysis is true to some extent. None of the numbers we see from offically sanctioned negro league games are such that, in and of themselves, they provide a compelling case for induction of any given player. Due to the way the Negro Leagues were structured, not even the greatest of the Negro Leaguers has lifetime statistics that are even remotely comparable to those of contemporary major leaguers. Thus, following your line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, no one gets in. They "don't get credit for numbers they didn't post" and it doesn't matter why, right? If they weren't compiled, they weren't compiled. End of story.

However, of course, that analysis is also greatly flawed because it does not take into account any of the reasons why. It doesn't take into account the thousands of barnstorming games, the exhausting conditions under which they generally had to play, the travel, or the financial instability of the teams they played for. Obviously, it also doesn't take into account the fact that blacks couldn't post major league numbers due to the existence of factors beyond their control.

That is my point. Why matters. Ultimately, though the HOF didn't want to, it was forced to to accept that why mattered insofar as at least some of the deserving Negro Leaguers were concerned. When it comes to Negro Leaguers, it appears that the why matters to you too. I think it is important with respect to the case of Cecil Travis as well.

[FrankWakefield]

Thanks for that, Ted.

Sounds like Mr. Mize offended front offices of the Cardinals, the New York Giants, and the Yankees. All players want 'more' money, but Mize may well have been more aggressive than others. Those strong franchises could spread the word about a player in those days. That may well have been a part of ownership and the newspapers downplaying Mize. Politics was, is, and probably always will be a vicious thing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

BIG difference you are obscuring, Kenny. The Negro League players DID post the numbers, they just didn't get recorded. In my opinion you are looking to make an analogy that just does not work.

[tiger8mush]

Cecil Travis should be rewarded for serving his country. Medals, money, honour, etc. But (IMO) entering the BASEBALL Hall of Fame should be based ONLY on your Baseball merits. If Cecil's baseball merits were good enough, he should be in.

By the same account, I don't think the HOF should be ONLY based on stats. Its called the Hall of FAME, not the Baseball Hall of Stats. Stats don't always tell the whole story.

To try to get back on topic, how about Colby Jack Coombs? He's not HOF material, but he pitched along side HOFers Chief Bender & Eddie Plank and had an amazing few seasons with the A's and even more amazing back-2-back post seasons (in 1910 and 1911, I believe).

Rob

[tedzan]

For sure, there's no doubt about it, politics do play a role in these HOF selections....and, most likely played a part in Mize's long delayed
entry into the HOF.

In the Fall of 1981 when I was with Johnny Mize, he was delightful, friendly, and was very responsive to the many questions I asked him.
That Summer, Mize was finally recognized for the tremendous ballplayer that he was. Our conversation started off on the right track, by
my telling Johnny that one of my fondest memories when I was a 10-year old kid was when I read in The Sporting News (Aug. 23, 1949)
that he was sold to the Yankees.

In the Summer of 1982, I had a lot business trips to Denver; and, I timed one in order to attend the St Louis National. Enos Slaughter was
one of many guests. A bunch of us gathered around Enos as he was holding court. A very interesting story-teller. His parting words to us
were...."I have told my daughters not to accept the HOF award if those idiots elect me into the HOF after I'm dead". And, he was "deadly"
serious about this. As you know, Enos was inducted into the HOF three years later.

Even though I was an avid Yankees fan as a kid, one of my best neighborhood friends, Gary Morit, was an avid Cardinals fan. So, between
Gary, my Bowman BB cards, and The Sporting News, I was well versed on your Cardinals as a kid.

Best regards ole buddy,

TED Z