Great thread, what about most under rated pre-war player?

[Kenny Cole]

Come on,

Cecil Travis lost most of 4 of his prime years serving our country in WWII. IMO, he gets credit for that. He also suffered frostbite during the battle of the bulge, which pretty well wiped him out post-war.

He was a hell of a shortstop. I don't think that is arguable. It seems to me that he shouldn't be debited too hard for losing 700+ hits and all of the other stats that the HOF deems important due to his service in WWII. IMO, losing the statistics that at least arguably would result in a HOF selection because you are serving our country is materially different from, for example, losing the statistics because you got hurt and couldn't finish your career. Getting hurt is part of the risk you assume when you play the game. Having to go fight on behalf of our country for 4 years isn't really a risk you assume when you sign up to play baseball, again IMO.

I'm not really sure how to compensate for that, but I don't think that the loss of 4 prime seasons due to military service is meaningless when you are looking at a statistical reason to elect, or not elect, a given candidate. Statistically, Cecil Travis got screwed by circumstances that were not personally related or baseball related. He was not a better or worse baseball player because of anything he did, or anything that was a result of the profession in which he engaged. He just lost 4 years.

In his case, I would submit that the statistics are far less important than they are in most when it comes to the HOF discussion. IMO, the question in my mind is, had he played those 4 seasons, would he be HOF worthy? Given that his candidacy is being discussed without them, I have to conclude that he would have been.

Kenny

[FrankWakefield]

I've wondered if the delay on Mize had to do with him playing with the Yankees and Cardinals. Lots of Yankees got into the Hall. Lots of Cardinals and Giants, too; many on merit, maybe a few from politics by Frisch and others. And politics may well have helped a Yankee or two. If that was the perception then a backlash to that might have happened. Slaughter would have been in the same boat. I recall the story about him sitting on the bench in the clubhouse, crying at the news that he'd been traded to NY. Was Mize abrasive with the media? Was that a two way street??

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

I've wondered if the delay on Mize had to do with him playing with the Yankees and Cardinals. Lots of Yankees got into the Hall.
Lots of Cardinals and Giants, too; many on merit, maybe a few from politics by Frisch and others. And politics may well have
helped a Yankee or two. If that was the perception then a backlash to that might have happened. Slaughter would have been
in the same boat. I recall the story about him sitting on the bench in the clubhouse, crying at the news that he'd been traded
to NY. Was Mize abrasive with the media? Was that a two way street??

In the Fall of 1981, I was fortunate to be set-up at a New Jersey BB card show next to the table that Johnny Mize was signing. The two
of us had a great time "Talking Baseball" for several hours. A really great guy, Mize invited me to visit with him, if I'm ever near Demorest,
Georgia.
In 1987, while visiting with friends in western North Carolina, I called Johnny, and drove down to Demorest. He was a most gracious host,
and we talked for about 2 hours. I recall this part of our conversation quite clearly....I asked Big John why he was traded by the Cardinals
at the end of 1941; and, then the Giants (1949), when he was at the top of his game. He told me that after 6 years of 100+ RBI's, a BA
that ranged from .314 to .364, he told Cardinals GM (Branch Rickey).."pay me or trade me". So, he was traded to the Giants. In 1947-48,
Mize's combined HR's = 91 and his RBI's = 263. In 1949, Mize felt he deserved an increase in salary. Leo Durocher and Horace Stoneham
disagreed, so Mize demanded to be traded.
Casey Stengel had followed Mize's career in the Nat'l Lge. since 1938, and the Yankees payed the Giants $40,000 to acquire the "Big Cat".
Mize was very instrumental in the Yankees success during 1949-1953. Especially in the 1952 World Series, which he hit 3 HR's, had 6 RBI's
and batted .400 (in 5 games). Mize was awarded the MVP of the Series. Mize was a tremendous clutch hitter. He still holds the record for
the most Pinch Hits in World Series play. And, hit 3 HR's in a game on 6 different occasions.

Regarding your question (Mize / HOF voting).....from 1960-1967, Mize received considerably less than 100 votes. Between 1968 to 1973,
the votes in favor of Mize started increasing to 157 (43%). Then, his status was in limbo till the Veteran's Committee elected him in 1981.







TED Z

[Peter_Spaeth]

In my opinion we can't put someone into the HOF based on speculation about what he might have done, even if there was a noble reason for missing those years. It starts down a slippery slope that will end up with Brien Taylor being enshrined.

[Kenny Cole]

So why is Addie Joss a HOFer?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Probably the 1.89 lifetime ERA, plus the run of 6-7-8 dominant seasons. If Travis was hitting .350 lifetime (whatever the analagous BA is) when he went to war it might have been a different story. Instead, he had a stat line that while IF it continued eventually might have landed him in HOF territory, but he was not in that territory yet.

[Kenny Cole]

Um, no. He doesn't qualify. 9 years, not 10. Elected because of what might have been had he not died early. Try again.

BTW, it wasn't really a what might have been situation with Travis. That was sort of my point. It was. Then it wasn't, due to something that wasn't in any way attributable to something he did or the profession he played.

[Peter_Spaeth]

160-97, 1.89, comparable to Koufax and Dean neither of whom died. Although I am sure that played a role in his case.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Kenny yeah of course it was beyond his control, but I just don't think you can assume performance over a four year period based on his past results. I mean sure it's likely, but he could have been injured, etc.

[Kenny Cole]

9 years. Not eligible except for what might have been.

[David W]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Um, no. He doesn't qualify. 9 years, not 10. Elected because of what might have been had he not died early. Try again.

BTW, it wasn't really a what might have been situation with Travis. That was sort of my point. It was. Then it wasn't, due to something that wasn't in any way attributable to something he did or the profession he played.

They waived the 10 year rule on Joss, assuming had he not died from meningitis he would have put up better career stats.

[Kenny Cole]

Peter,

You are wrong. Look at the numbers for the Negro League HOFers in the back of Shades of Glory. Particularly with respect to the ones who played in thirties and forties, it is my understanding that the researchers think they have found box scores for nearly 100% of the league games and that their numbers are very solid.

All of the numbers are small. If someone simply looked at Josh Gibson's league numbers, without any context, I don't think they would be likely to conclude that he is even a HOFer, let alone arguably the greatest catcher ever. The numbers do not support his greatness.

Contrary to what you seem to think, it isn't that his stats weren't recorded or that some portion of them has been lost. They have them. Lost or unrecorded stats isn't the reason the numbers are small. Rather, the reason
they are small is that, due to the circumstances which existed at the time, he only played in 510 league games over the course of his entire career. Not even Josh Gibson can post huge numbers in only 510 games.

[Fred]

I love it when this thread shows up. The 19th Century players are represented, here are a few that didn't get a mention:

Count Mullane - would have probably won 300 games if he wasn't kicked out for a year.

Bobby Mathews - 297 career wins. Probably would have stuck around if he knew three Ws would have meant something.

Bob Caruthers - Third highest winning percentage for a pitcher with over 200Wins.

George Van Haltren - Lifetime .316 BA, 11 x 100 runs scored in a season, 583 lieftime SBs. Over 1000 RBIs over 1600 Runs.

Tip O'Neill - aruguably one of the most dominating statistical seasons in 1887 when he led the league in R, RBI, H, 2B, 3B, HR, BA, Slg%, TBs. Also has a career .326 liefetime BA. I guess hitting .435 one year helps that out.