Great thread, what about most under rated pre-war player?

[Kenny Cole]

Um, no. He doesn't qualify. 9 years, not 10. Elected because of what might have been had he not died early. Try again.

BTW, it wasn't really a what might have been situation with Travis. That was sort of my point. It was. Then it wasn't, due to something that wasn't in any way attributable to something he did or the profession he played.

[Peter_Spaeth]

160-97, 1.89, comparable to Koufax and Dean neither of whom died. Although I am sure that played a role in his case.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Kenny yeah of course it was beyond his control, but I just don't think you can assume performance over a four year period based on his past results. I mean sure it's likely, but he could have been injured, etc.

[Kenny Cole]

9 years. Not eligible except for what might have been.

[Kenny Cole]

Peter,

Cecil Travis is hitting the **** out of the ball for 8 years. He's going into his prime years as a baseball player. But he is suddenly going to go south, a la, Brian Taylor (who didn't have even 1 good year or go into the service) because maybe that might of, could of, happened, and we don't know if it would have because he was serving our country in the army? That's why he shouldn't be elected to the HOF?

Your other answer, as I understand it, is that we don't know what would have happened had WWII not derailed his career because the possibility exists that he might have been injured. Am I correct? Are those your arguments? I would like to define the parameters of the discussion before we go on.

[David W]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Um, no. He doesn't qualify. 9 years, not 10. Elected because of what might have been had he not died early. Try again.

BTW, it wasn't really a what might have been situation with Travis. That was sort of my point. It was. Then it wasn't, due to something that wasn't in any way attributable to something he did or the profession he played.

They waived the 10 year rule on Joss, assuming had he not died from meningitis he would have put up better career stats.

[Kenny Cole]

Peter,

You are wrong. Look at the numbers for the Negro League HOFers in the back of Shades of Glory. Particularly with respect to the ones who played in thirties and forties, it is my understanding that the researchers think they have found box scores for nearly 100% of the league games and that their numbers are very solid.

All of the numbers are small. If someone simply looked at Josh Gibson's league numbers, without any context, I don't think they would be likely to conclude that he is even a HOFer, let alone arguably the greatest catcher ever. The numbers do not support his greatness.

Contrary to what you seem to think, it isn't that his stats weren't recorded or that some portion of them has been lost. They have them. Lost or unrecorded stats isn't the reason the numbers are small. Rather, the reason
they are small is that, due to the circumstances which existed at the time, he only played in 510 league games over the course of his entire career. Not even Josh Gibson can post huge numbers in only 510 games.

[Fred]

I love it when this thread shows up. The 19th Century players are represented, here are a few that didn't get a mention:

Count Mullane - would have probably won 300 games if he wasn't kicked out for a year.

Bobby Mathews - 297 career wins. Probably would have stuck around if he knew three Ws would have meant something.

Bob Caruthers - Third highest winning percentage for a pitcher with over 200Wins.

George Van Haltren - Lifetime .316 BA, 11 x 100 runs scored in a season, 583 lieftime SBs. Over 1000 RBIs over 1600 Runs.

Tip O'Neill - aruguably one of the most dominating statistical seasons in 1887 when he led the league in R, RBI, H, 2B, 3B, HR, BA, Slg%, TBs. Also has a career .326 liefetime BA. I guess hitting .435 one year helps that out.

[SteveMitchell]

Thank you, Kenny Cole, for a vigorous and fact-based defense of the late, great Cecil Travis. I think I was the one who first brought up Cecil Travis in this thread and must say that Kenny's arguments have been flawless. Thanks again, Kenny.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's still not the same thing. The Negro Leaguers are not being credited for years they didn't play, based on assumptions about what they would have done in those years. They are being credited for their actual careers -- which of course included numerous unofficial games.