Announcing "Collectors Forensics Register" - Revolutionizing the Hobby

[Collectors Forensics Reg]

Originally Posted by jmk59

I don't know about the exact details of the business set-up, but I think I do see some merit in the idea.

I've been on these boards a long time, and I can't imagine how many times I've seen people trying to figure out the history of a card in an auction. Some eagle-eyed auction browser will spot a card and speculate that it may or may not be the same card that used to be in this or that holder with this or that different grade and sold for $X in some past auction. It is very common for people to start trying to backtrack a particular card and confirm something about previous grading or other history. Ususally they are trying to spot little aritifacts on the card - slight stains, tiny paper pulls, etc - and match them up to blurry scans and things like that.

I've also seen it suggested many times that grading companies scan cards as they come in to help keep registries straight as cards are cracked and resubmitted, expose fraud if someone wants to do their own reholdering, identify alterations, etc. It's always been agreed that it doesn't seem feasible for the graders to do that.

So I think it could be useful to have an online archive of graded cards with dates, companies, grades, serial numbers and very detailed images. One spot where you could try to find an image and confirmed grade/company for many cards. I would bet I see it referenced on this board eventually as cards are logged and posted and someone here recognizes the same card in different clothing in a different auction.

I also think it could be a valuable link for ebay sellers that don't have the time or equipment to post detailed 50x scans.

As to the business model, pricing, target audiences, etc, I don't know how well that will go. But I definitely see some usefulness in the overall idea.

Joann

Thanks very much for the post Joann. A little history on our model... it is the product of about eight month's worth of enumerating the issues that we felt were effecting the hobby in a less than positive manner. We then applied solutions to each issue. In some cases one solution addressed several issues and in other cases several solutions were required to correct one issue.

We drew from our experiences of over 100 years, collectively, in the hobby and have also leveraged our professional backgrounds in Regulatory Technology and Enforcement (on Wall Street) and Memorabilia Sales / Authentication to deliver a service that would enable sellers while protecting buyers. We also felt that it would deter fraud while developing a self-governance through a single source with easily accessed forensic information. It is a new culture and a new paradigm, so we understand that it's something that will take a little time.

It's clear that you have been able to see the big picture Joann, and have looked through to the other side :-) This is vacuum that simply needs to be filled. To address your last statement about pricing, we offer "10 card" registration packages starting at $75 which includes free shipping and insurance back to the registrant. However, we are always open to suggestions and welcome your input.

[oldjudge]

Joann-What you are suggesting only works if all vintage cards are scanned into an accessable data base. This is not going to happen unless it is done at the grading company levels into a shared, and open, data base. As described, it will not happen at the level of this company. This service does not benefit the current owner of the card, it only benefits future owners, begging the question of why a current owner would pay the cost. The only one I see paying for this service is someone who has already doctored a card and wants it to achieve some sort of legitimacy by appearing in the data base. This whole business model is a non-starter unless these guys approach the grading companies and offer to be the universal data base for images of all cards that they grade. They could charge a minimal fee that the grading companies pass along and make their money from people who want to access their data base later.

[Matthew H]

Even if you figured out a way to make this service somehow useful to our hobby, I think you'll have a hard time getting people to pay $9 to essentially scan their cards.

[jmk59]

Jay - I definitely agree that it works better if the database is strongly populated. But it has to start somewhere, IMO. Might as well here as anywhere.

And I don't know how the business model will go from a pricing standpoint - only that I see a big-picture value to the idea. I haven't looked at it closely enough to even understand and comment, really, but I will say offhand that it is easier for me to identify value to non-owners (as someone said, future owners, hobby watchdogs, maybe sellers, etc) than to current owners and targeted submitters.

Still an interesting idea if it can work.

J

[Leon]

I am sort of neutral about it and mostly fall into the "do I really need it?" camp. That being said I am also a bit concerned about Lloyd (he is the original poster) claiming over 100 yrs experience (collectively) in the hobby and having never heard of WIWAG, Operation Bullpen, CAC or GAI's issues. I am sort of wondering what hobby the experience is in unless they have 100 guys with 1 yr of experience each. I always applaud thinking of new things and outside of the box so I applaud them for the undertaking and wish them luck. Time will tell. best regards

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't understand a company that touts their experience and doesn't tell you their NAMES.

[Anthony S.]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't understand a company that touts their experience and doesn't tell you their NAMES.

It is odd that they answer other questions in such great detail, but continue to ignore every request that they identify themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_FZVD5lsAw

[Collectors Forensics Reg]

Originally Posted by Leon

I am sort of neutral about it and mostly fall into the "do I really need it?" camp. That being said I am also a bit concerned about Lloyd (he is the original poster) claiming over 100 yrs experience (collectively) in the hobby and having never heard of WIWAG, Operation Bullpen, CAC or GAI's issues. I am sort of wondering what hobby the experience is in unless they have 100 guys with 1 yr of experience each. I always applaud thinking of new things and outside of the box so I applaud them for the undertaking and wish them luck. Time will tell. best regards

Thanks for the post Leon. As we discussed the other day, fraud is fraud, no matter what flavor it comes in or what acronym that it's given (i.e. WIWAG). We record forensic properties of cards that are submitted to us for registration and facilitate their entry to the public record. Period. We take no position / make no judgement in grading company, quality or accuracy as stated previously. I'm sure that you understand why we can't come out and post about scandals. it's not our mission and nothing good can come from it. Apologies for the bluntness but this apparently needed to be clarified.

As for our experience in the hobby, the point was that we have been around a while and have seen a lot. We are simply responding to the issues as we best see fit. At the end of the day Leon, is providing an impartial forensic service and facilitating a central information register really congruent to the fact that the 1970 Donn Clendenon was my first baseball card ? :-)

[RobertGT]

I can see this service actually driving down the sale price of a graded card for several reasons:

- Most high-end graded card collectors are pretty picky about the condition/aesthetics of the TPG holder as well as the condition of the card itself. Attaching an ugly sticker to the reverse of the holder is a big turn-off, especially because it belongs to an anonymous start-up company that no one knows whether it will be around in one year from now.

- The company by its own admission will take no position on whether the card holder has been tampered with when they receive and evaluate it. It does nothing to eliminate fraud or detect bad holders, and perhaps may encourage scammers looking to add a layer of legitimacy to a fraudulent item. Service just takes a snapshot of whatever is submitted to them with no opinion whatsoever. It's laughable the service is touting fraud deterrence, when - as earlier posts indicate - the anonymous company officials are completely unaware of well-publicized scandals such as WIWAG, etc.

- Let's take a leap and say a few people use this service. I think most can agree its appeal is limited at best - perhaps for only some major high-end cards. So what about the rest of the mainstream collectors? When given a choice to buy a straight PSA 8 card that matches the rest of the cards in their set registry, or buy a PSA 8 card with some strange sticker on the back from an anonymous company that is only seen on 1 percent of all graded cards, which would they choose?

- For me, this is the equivalent of purchasing a 52 Topps Mantle RC in a PRO 8 holder.

[dstudeba]

Originally Posted by Collectors Forensics Reg

I'm sure that you understand why we can't come out and post about scandals. it's not our mission and nothing good can come from it. Apologies for the bluntness but this apparently needed to be clarified.

Please excuse my ignorance, but I don't understand why you can't comment on public, well documented scandals. For someone who has supposednly been in the hobby long enough to start a business involving the hobby I would think they would know about WIWAG whatever acronym was used. Also your whole company is based on the existence of fraud and scandals, if it didn't exist, there would be no need for forensics.

[timzcardz]

Originally Posted by jmk59

Jay - I definitely agree that it works better if the database is strongly populated. But it has to start somewhere, IMO. Might as well here as anywhere.

J

That might not be entirely true.

Taking into consideration the failure rate of startup businesses, even in estabished market sectors, the viability of a new business type starting from scratch, as opposed to a new service being introduced by a financially established related business, seems questionable.

Will the company have the resources to survive until profitability is achieved?

If not, then all data is lost, along with the fees paid by individuals, unless an established company sees the viability and purchases the assets, that is, the data in the forms of images, etc., and carries it forward.

[Collectors Forensics Reg]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Even if you figured out a way to make this service somehow useful to our hobby, I think you'll have a hard time getting people to pay $9 to essentially scan their cards.

Thanks for the post Matt. There is a lot more to the service than scanned cards. The scanning part of the registration is the bonus. The forensic video capture (4-6 minutes long) is the centerpiece of the service. Additional options include 50x corner photos and UV (blacklight) photos. Also, our price break for 10 cards is $75 including free shipping and insurance, so it's more like $6 per card. Feel free to visit our web site at www.cfreg.com for more detailed information.

[bcornell]

I usually decline to participate in revolutions, unless I can do it from my couch.

Please don't perform any forensics or autopsies on my collection. I've found the best deterrent to fraud is actually knowing what I'm buying.


Bill

[Collectors Forensics Reg]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Joann-What you are suggesting only works if all vintage cards are scanned into an accessable data base. This is not going to happen unless it is done at the grading company levels into a shared, and open, data base. As described, it will not happen at the level of this company. This service does not benefit the current owner of the card, it only benefits future owners, begging the question of why a current owner would pay the cost. The only one I see paying for this service is someone who has already doctored a card and wants it to achieve some sort of legitimacy by appearing in the data base. This whole business model is a non-starter unless these guys approach the grading companies and offer to be the universal data base for images of all cards that they grade. They could charge a minimal fee that the grading companies pass along and make their money from people who want to access their data base later.

Thanks for the post Oldjudge. Your post consists of several unrelated thoughts, so we'll address them one at a time:

Scanned Database Entries - unfortunately information can not simply be scanned into a database. We do scan the graded cards to capture their image but entering the information is a G & A function (G & A is a business term standing for General and Administrative). We do that for all cards that are registered with us and post it to our web site for public access. This gives hobbyists the ability to search our web site by grading company, serial number, player name, card number etc. No need to involve the grading companies for that.

Current Owner Benefit - 2 parts to this one... 1) We've already established earlier in this thread in a response a couple of days ago that read "Thanks for your post, Barry... stated very eloquently. You summed everything up very nicely. When looking at this service in the context of the fun and / or the love of hobby, we can certainly understand why this [no interest in the service] would be the initial reaction of hobby purists and we respect that." 2) The very first point that we made in this thread (the first bullet in our opening statement read "Sellers with forensic registrations of their cards will have a decided advantage over sellers without registrations". In short, graded card sellers (current owners) have the greatest motivation to use the service to advantage themselves from those who haven't.

Doctored Card Submission - Wow, we had to read this one a few times. We're not sure why a perp would go to the time and expense of entering his doctored cards into the public record. The consensus is that he would either be very proud of his work to indict himself in such a manner or that he wants to get caught. His fraud will appear 50 times larger under the microscope.

[BleedinBlue]

Originally Posted by Collectors Forensics Reg

Thanks very much for the post Joann. A little history on our model... it is the product of about eight month's worth of enumerating the issues that we felt were effecting the hobby in a less than positive manner. We then applied solutions to each issue. In some cases one solution addressed several issues and in other cases several solutions were required to correct one issue.

I'm curious as to what issues you came up with in your eight months of enumerating and how this service addresses each of these issues. As far as I can tell you are only potentially solving one problem: has a holder been tampered with and a card replaced SINCE the card was scanned by your service. It seems that there is no effort being made on your part to prevent someone from buying a high dollar card already slabbed, cracking that holder and replacing with a lower quality (or fraudulant copy) and then submitting to your service to "document" this as a legitimate graded card. How does your service give me any peace of mind that the card in the holder is legit just because you scanned it?