Mastro Auctions Mastro's Stuff?

[brian1961]

I share the feelings of those who said that they are saddened by the news that Bill Mastro is selling his collection. That is life. Happens to all of us, sooner or later. I guess the empathy stems from my own strong feelings for the items I have worked hard to collect and thoroughly enjoy. As a collector, it is hard to say "good-bye". Since Bill is only in his mid-late 50s, I would imagine it is tough. However, our feelings can change for the items we own. That has sure happened to me. But all of them at once? No way.

My first recollection of Mr. Mastro was watching him drop any and all bidders for items he wanted at the huge 1972 Midwest Sports Convention in Troy, Michigan. The auctioneer would start the bidding for most of the items, all considered very choice today, at a dollar or two. The bidding would hit three bucks, then Bill would loudly call out "TEN", in a defiant and powerful East Coast dialect. Further bidding ceased. No one wanted any part of trying to go head-to-head with him. Lionel Carter commented about that auction, "Bill is quite a showman". I agreed. I found it quite comical and entertaining. Then again, I was at my first adult show and not bidding against him. Of course, no one was forced to stop bidding. Bill did not threaten anyone, or put a gun to someone's head and suggest they cease bidding. He just blew them away with convincing bids, and like Keller and Keller, he meant business.

Most of my dealings with Bill were very positive. Some of the finest pieces in my collection I will point with pride that I got them from Bill Mastro. As I understand it, for a time he was one of the key consignors of choice items to Alan Rosen's quarterly SCD auctions. He bought collections and sold them. Sometimes he kept an item or two that particularly struck his fancy. His taste was impeccable. From his consultant position at Sotheby's for the auction of the Copeland Collection in 1991, the rest is history. I should think that any of the items on that list in the Legendary article will draw several very serious combatants and receive sufficient bids to garner a befitting price. They're certainly all genuine. If I wanted something on that list, I would be a chump to avoid it. Legendary will give the pieces a deluxe treatment in the catalog. Hopefully, they will do the same with mine. Usually they get it right and do it justice.

Whatever the outcome of the proceedings, I feel very tired and depressed about the matter and what it has done to our hobby, and the way the general public thinks about it. When wrong is done, yes, it should be exposed and dealt with. Hopefully, you or I will never step out of line. Just think, the five Girl Scout leaders that embezzled five grand from the yearly cookie sales got caught. It happened in Florida, and made the front page in my local South Bend Tribune. The guy in charge of the South Bend crime-watchers reward fund turned himself in to the police station, having confessed to embezzling 100 grand. So, watch your own step; it may be "A LULU".

Be that as it may, some of you sit there and beat your breasts with dozens of denouncements. Are you really that happy that he might just really "get it!" Then what if most all the prospective new collectors and dare I say investors decide, "oh brother, this hobby is all just a bunch of crooks. Better choose something else to enjoy."


Furthermore, let us say for the sake of the discussion that shill bidding indeed took place. What if the interpretation of that finding by John Q. Public, including all well-heeled newer collectors is that ALL OF OUR CARDS AND MEMORABILIA IS NOW WAY OVERPRICED BECAUSE THE FBI FOUND SHILL BIDDING? Every current value becomes suspect as people throw the 'ol baby out with the bathwater. You could put on a brave face and say, "I collected these because I loved them so much. I do not care what they are worth." Yeah, sure. No one, and I mean no one, wants their 500-dollar item to become a 150-dollar item in two weeks. If the value of your prized item dropped by over half, you will not be able to look at it with the same enjoyment again. In the end, I hope the findings are nowhere near as bad as some of you proclaim. If so, we will all have to help pick up the pieces.

Oh yeah, I suppose I better mention the whole reason I stuck my nose in this thread. Go to the Robert Edward Auction website, click on "LINKS", then go to the listing for the New York Daily News "I-Team Blog". From there scroll down to the article Michael O'Keefe penned on September 1, 2010 entitled, "Tumult continues in memorabilia world". Read it very carefully and scrutinize the quotes. One observation I had is that there was none of the usual parting shots from Mr. O'Keefe. Somehow, I would not be surprised if by reading it, a few of you will place a bar of soap in your mouth, and even delete a few comments.

It is still a free country, kinda, sorta. Perhaps Leon could enlighten us as to the extent that we are free to rip someone up one side and down the other.

Hopefully, your spare hour of reading this long harangue was worthwhile.

Hang in there. Respectfully, Brian Powell

[glchen]

I don't know what to say, and I'm a relative newcomer to the hobby. However, I equate shill bidding and the like to PEDs in baseball. If you're caught, you should be banned, and if you're tainted, no Hall of Fame (or "Most Prominent Collectors in the Hobby") for you. Just like Bonds and Clemens sit in isolation, Mastro should do the same. There's little sympathy for people who could have had it all. The sport is bigger than Bonds/Clemens, and the hobby is bigger than Bill Mastro. Saying that seeing people facing justice for these crimes brings shame to the hobby and will drive away new collectors is something I disagree with. Just like cleaning up baseball is something that needs to be done, same thing with the hobby. When people feel more comfortable that the hobby is not full of crooks, it will continue to grow.

[HRBAKER]

I'm not sure why it is "sad" when anyone decides to sell their collection.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

I'm not sure why it is "sad" when anyone decides to sell their collection.

My condolences and prayers to anyone who has recently decided to sell his collection.

[Rich Klein]

And if somone could find this post; it's in my memory but I could not figure out how to find this specific post.

My old friend Brett Domue, posted a whole bunch of years ago about noticing the exact same description in Mastro auctions a few years apart. I think the 1st item was from a Mastro/Steinbach catalog and the next one was about 3-4years later

Just an interesting take on the matter

Rich

[Peter_Spaeth]

Agree with Gary and Jeff. IF people in the hobby committed fraud, we should be concerned about seeing that they are brought to justice and that restitution is paid to their victims, and not about the values of our own collections.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

I'm not sure why it is "sad" when anyone decides to sell their collection.

In my opinion, and because I am a die hard collector myself and enjoy the hobby so much, I know it will be sad when I sell my collection (regardless of the reason). That is why it is sad to me.

[calvindog]

Brian, you have an interesting take on the Mastro investigation. You primarily believe that the federal investigation of Mastro will be bad for our investments if the public learns that Bill Mastro is a crook. (Yes, that's probably true -- and it most certainly will cost me money if collectors who might be buying my cards in the future believe that they're overvalued due to such news.) So the alternative is that the laws of our country should not be applied to Bill Mastro and Doug Allen because such an application will cost all of us money? Apparently you and some other Net 54 members believe that. I don't. I'd rather live in a country where the laws are applied equally to all. If that means I'll lose some money, well, I'll be pointing a finger not at the federal government who is enforcing those laws but at the people who violated the laws. And take this from someone who earns a living fighting the government.

If charges of fraud are made and proven, yes, we'll have to 'pick up the pieces' as you say but perhaps it will be a first step in ridding our hobby of the rampant fraud which infects it. Imagine a hobby where you know that when a lot sells in an auction it really sold for that price, that you weren't defrauded along the way. Imagine a Net 54 where people with financial interests tied to wrongdoers won't contort themselves in all kinds of positions in an effort to divert and stifle criticism of the wrongdoers. I can. And at least until I'm banned from here I'll keep speaking out about these issues.

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by calvindog

So the alternative is that the laws of our country should not be applied to Bill Mastro and Doug Allen because such an application will cost all of us money? Apparently you and some other Net 54 members believe that. I don't. I'd rather live in a country where the laws are applied equally to all. If that means I'll lose some money, well, I'll be pointing a finger not at the federal government who is enforcing those laws but at the people who violated the laws. And take this from someone who earns a living fighting the government.

calvindog----I did not think I was coming across as if the laws of our land should not be applied to someone who is prominent or wealthy. Perish the thought.

In the first place many of you speak as if Mr. Mastro has already been found guilty of every single accusation. I'd rather live in a country where you are innocent until proven guilty. Then again, all you have to do is say, "OJ". I also believe Bruno Richard Hauptmann was innocent, and our country's judicial system just wanted a culprit. Still, tarring and feathering Bill and Doug verbally based on what the FBI is investigating them for with the understanding a la innuendo that any and all levels of questionable activity must of a certainty have been duly conducted with a system as thorough and far-reaching as the Mafia is reckless. When the findings come out, then I'm sure the leather-lunged will belt it out. (EXCEPT ME; I'M GETTING TI-RED OF THIS. ONE OR TWO OF YOU ARE PROBABLY FEELING THE SAME WAY ABOUT ME!)

Furthermore, WHILE I IN NO WAY CAN SPEAK FOR EVERYONE WHO WON AN ITEM IN A MASTRO AUCTION, during the course of the years that I participated in a Mastro Auction, and won several items, never did I get the impression that I overpaid. In some instances, I almost won them cheaply. I can think of several choice pieces that I gave up on, only to truly regret not bidding higher, as the items have since skyrocketed.

However, I must admit that I never put in an up to or ceiling bid. Why? I have never trusted that strategy of winning an item. It would be too easy for someone at the auction house to shill. Now cal, that is my own philosophy of bidding for any item, from EVERY auction house. I will gladly give up a great night's sleep to keep on top of the auction action.




If charges of fraud are made and proven, yes, we'll have to 'pick up the pieces' as you say but perhaps it will be a first step in ridding our hobby of the rampant fraud which infects it. Imagine a hobby where you know that when a lot sells in an auction it really sold for that price, that you weren't defrauded along the way.

----Calvindog, you speak as if most of the items were cranked due to shilling. Granted, by all means, I agree with you in the respect that you should only pay what was fairly bid. I feel the buyer's premiums have gotten too high, but that's an industry issue. Imagine a Net 54 where people with financial interests tied to wrongdoers won't contort themselves in all kinds of positions in an effort to divert and stifle criticism of the wrongdoers. Cal-----just so you know, in the small chance you should care, I only have one minor item consigned to Legendary's November auction. I can. And at least until I'm banned from here I'll keep speaking out about these issues.

The major issue that I am concerned with is the doctoring of cards. Though I do not collect uniforms, the finding by the Baseball Hall of Fame that the uniform of Joe Jackson was a fake was pretty interesting. I think with the value of these sports artifacts at a salty level on par with the Dead Sea, the temptation for fraud of various sorts arises within all kinds of con artists.


We shall see but we shall see. Thanks to Leon's reassurance, we can all continue to rant and even praise in freedom. Thanks for your perspective, calvindog. I sincerely admire and appreciate a good watchdog. If I have the wrong idea, I do want to be set straight. ---Brian Powell

[iggyman]

If that's the case, then lets forget all about Felix the Cat. Afterall, when was the last time he saved an industry? Jeff, I really do think that this little guy is more appropriate for you:

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"Here I come to save the day!"

[Exhibitman]

As far as the damage to the card market presumed from the fallout of the FBI investigation, I am with Jeff on this: if that is the price of cleaning house and deterring further misadventures, so be it. I am a collector--I don't plan to sell my cards so whether the cards are 'worth' any specific price is meaningless to me; it is just theoretical, like appreciation on my house. Besides, if prices drop markedly I can buy more cards.

Price drop = calamity = investor

Price drop = opportunity to pick up more stuff = collector

[calvindog]

Adam, exactly. Which is why you won't be found twisting yourself into a pretzel with 'logic' trying to support the Mastros of this world, solely to protect either your investment, your possible future income, your potential job opportunity, or your good friends who have always been nice to you while they rob you blind.

It's not hard to pick out the people with the transparent agendas; just follow the dollars.

[Leon]

If I have heard it from one board member I have heard it from a hundred.......So many one trick ponies on this board, especially lawyers from NY . I hope they enjoy the hobby as much as I do. Giddy up....

[timzcardz]

Originally Posted by brian1961

Oh yeah, I suppose I better mention the whole reason I stuck my nose in this thread. Go to the Robert Edward Auction website, click on "LINKS", then go to the listing for the New York Daily News "I-Team Blog". From there scroll down to the article Michael O'Keefe penned on September 1, 2010 entitled, "Tumult continues in memorabilia world". Read it very carefully and scrutinize the quotes. One observation I had is that there was none of the usual parting shots from Mr. O'Keefe. Somehow, I would not be surprised if by reading it, a few of you will place a bar of soap in your mouth, and even delete a few comments.

Thank you for pointing this out. Very enlightening, especially the last paragraph of the statement:

"There exists a small group of self-serving retailers, chat room participants and media reporters, with their right to free speech, who insist on initiating unwarranted, reckless and exaggerated rumors intended to strike an unnecessary offensive blow to our beloved industry. With the emergence of the Collectible Trade Association of America, these critics can now expect an appropriate and powerful response."

And a shortcut to the full article for anyone else interested:
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/ite...emorabili.html

[calvindog]

Tim, that last paragraph is actually unintentionally ironic and hilarious at the same time.

[timzcardz]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Tim, that last paragraph is actually unintentionally ironic and hilarious at the same time.

WOW! That is little critical of you!

You can now expect an appropriate and powerful response.

[Leon]

We aren't chat room participants, we are a forum. Nothing to worry about guys...Nothing to see...move along now.

My only issue with some on our board is that they seem to take our opinions on issues as we are defending fraudulent activity. That is the farthest thing from the truth. No where and no time have I ever condoned fraudulent activity or said that perpetrators of said fraud should not be punished. No one on this board will get banned for leading the charge against fraud. However, just like I was quoted a few years ago in the newspaper article I do like to put things in perspective. If ALL I do is agonize over the hobby then it's probably not the place for me. If I can mostly have fun and still be looking out and reporting the bad stuff, then that is ok. To each their own though and I guess if someone wants to continually agonize over their hobby it's their right to do so. Rebuttal embellishment may start now........

ps...as for the "trade association"......the way it was trying to be done is silly on so many levels.

[calvindog]

Agonize? Does it seem like I'm agonizing over Mastro and Allen being investigated for their rampant fraud? In contrast, every day is like a party! In fact, I spend my days holding my sides in while laughing so hard -- like Felix the Cat.

Rebuttal embellisment [sic] concluded.

[ElCabron]

It's clear that Jeff is ready to fight....for his right....to paaaaaaaaaaaartyyyyyyyyyy!!!!

-Ryan

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Agonize? Does it seem like I'm agonizing over Mastro and Allen being investigated for their rampant fraud? In contrast, every day is like a party! In fact, I spend my days holding my sides in while laughing so hard -- like Felix the Cat.

Rebuttal embellisment [sic] concluded.

here he is

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Agonize? Does it seem like I'm agonizing over Mastro and Allen being investigated for their rampant fraud?

Yes. That is all you seem to think about. Or am I not allowed to have an opinion in the "Lichtman Universe". Look, if they committed fraud then they should pay their just dues, just like you or I. Can I make that anymore clear for you counselor?

[iggyman]

Leon, can you kindly direct me to the "chat room participant board" Marshall was referencing??? I'm sorry, but it's plain as a pikestaff. I'm sure some Armani wearing association attorney is taking down notes as we speak. But not to worry, it is only done to ensure the integrity of this great industry.

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