Revisiting the T206 Wagner "strip"

[Jewish-collector]

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

I disagree. Two or three times a week on this board, I see people calling for a representative from a grading company to chime in to a thread and offer an opinion or explanation. The first time a grading company representative does this, it sets a precedent. There have certainly been plenty of other high-profile items where grading companies have been asked to comment on this board.

I also know that if I submitted a card to a grading company, or if I owned a card that was the subject of some discussion, I wouldn't want the grading company to be making public statements about my card - whether they be positive or negative or indifferent. SGC is not the owner of the card; they were asked to render an opinion for the owner of the card at the time of submission, and not to make a public statement to the entire hobby at the request of someone who has no ownership interest in the card at all.

My suggestion would be to have one of the academics here contact the owner of the card, and in the interest of learning, ask if the slab could be opened at next year's National, in a public forum. It could be examined under a loupe, and then re-slabbed. I'd be happy to pony up some cash for re-slabbing the card.

-Al

Great idea !!! Then all of us Net54 members could take turns examining it. We could vote one piece or not one piece. The item would then be re-slabbed with that info on the label on what the majority of members decide.

[Leon]

I have emailed back and forth with Wayne Varner about some other things in the last day or two. He and his partner Bill have handled this raw. Here is his message (I hope he doesn't mind)...

" By the way that Wagner strip is the real thing. No cards pasted together. You can talk to Bill and I about it at the Valley Forge show next month if you are planning to be there. I am sure Ted Z, Bill and I will have conversation. He sits up right next to us if you recall. Hope to see you there.

Wayne"




The other 1 of the 2 people that think it's a strip, which I previously mentioned, is Richard Masson....He and Scott B, my partner (and who already gave his opinion), both louped it at the National and think it's one strip. No more anonymity in my musings . I don't really like to throw names around for a few reasons but I never make crap up.....I could be wrong sometimes, and will admit it, but if I say something there is a reason. best regards

[Comiskey]

What I don't understand is that SGC would have a problem standing by their opinion. I mean, they examined the card and slabbed it, why wouldn't they want to express their opinion on the card? I understand that sometimes threads can become negative, but if they come on the board and express their professional opinion, I would have greater respect for third party grading.

It's a piece of hobby lore and any details about the strip should be expressed so we can come to a detailed conclusion about the piece.

I guess I am just having a hard time believing that a company created to determine the authenticity and grades of these cardboard pieces, wouldn't come onto this board and tell us their opinion on the piece?

Jeff

[HRBAKER]

I can see both sides but they have graded and authenticated it already by slabbing it. In essence they have already rendered a professional opinion.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

I can see both sides but they have graded and authenticated it already by slabbing it. In essence they have already rendered a professional opinion.

Exactly!

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Comiskey

What I don't understand is that SGC would have a problem standing by their opinion. I mean, they examined the card and slabbed it, why wouldn't they want to express their opinion on the card? I understand that sometimes threads can become negative, but if they come on the board and express their professional opinion, I would have greater respect for third party grading.

It's a piece of hobby lore and any details about the strip should be expressed so we can come to a detailed conclusion about the piece.

I guess I am just having a hard time believing that a company created to determine the authenticity and grades of these cardboard pieces, wouldn't come onto this board and tell us their opinion on the piece?

Jeff

I suggested maybe someone from SGC chime in back at post #25 so I'm guessing either they don't want to get involved in the discussion or they assume the fact that they slabbed it speaks for itself. Personally, if prior owners say it's one strip that's good enough for me. Unless I hit the lottery I won't have to worry about ever owning it so I'm not losing much sleep over it one way or the other, but it would be interesting to hear SGC's take on it.

[cfc1909]

SGC gave their opinion-it is in their holder-SGC A-that is their opinion.

Anything else that is said or written should be to the owner of the card, not on a public chat board...

[goudeygold]

If you step back and think about it a minute, how can 5 cards could be glued together so perfectly that it is essentially undetectable under a 10x loop 100 years after being glued, then creased, folded and tossed about.

The alignment on the top and bottom is razor perfect across all cards. I simply cannot see how it is plausible that they are 5 separate cards glued together 100 years ago. No way IMHO.

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com...agnerstrip.jpg

[tedzan]

Regarding this recent comment......
"The alignment on the top and bottom is razor perfect across all cards. I simply cannot see how it is plausible that they are 5 separate
cards glued together 100 years ago. No way IMHO."

I don't think you realize that the printers employed by American Lithographic were the best at their trade. 100 years ago, they were the
foremost lithographers in this country. Accurately piecing together 5 images of BB players was a trivial task for these professionals. Have
you ever seen the amazing lithographic pieces of art produced by American Litho. ?
These little pieces of cardboard we call T206's pale by comparison.

However since you brought up this subject, I ask all of you to take a good look at the scan of this strip in post #39. Many of you have
said that the vertical lines between the cards were printed. Check it out again guys....if those lines were printed, then they would have
the identical intensity (and appearance) as the black ink printed proof cross-marks.
Instead these vertical lines are "hairline" thin and no where as intense. In no way are these hairline vertical lines the result of printing.
And, no one here has yet been able to explain these lines. Other than they are indeed the separations between these images.

I think Frank Wakefield's following post best describes the make up of this "5-image" strip.

"....It isn't cards at all. It is separate papers, printed on the papers are the images that would eventually be the fronts of certain
white border tobacco cards, the papers are pieced together as seen. It isn't a card, nor 5 cards, and it isn't even a printer's proof.
It seems a spec sample of what was planned, a demonstration of what could be....."


TED Z

[benjulmag]

What borders on hiliarity about this, as well as the PSA 8 Wagner, is that both instances can be conclusively resolved, I believe, by taking the card/"strip" out of its holder and re examining it based on available grading standards. In the case of the "strip", if in fact it is a strip, then presumably when out of the plastic one can simply do the "feel" test and then we're done. In the case of the PSA 8, a high magnification analysis of the borders (and for that I'm not even sure it is necessary to remove the card from the slab) will show whether that card's borders has such physical characteristics that, over the years, has caused PSA to designate countless cards with comparable borders as "authentic". Really, this is not that complicated. We're not trying to solve who shot Kennedy here. In the case of the "strip", inasmuch as I don't believe its value willl be materially impacted either way whether it is a strip or individual pre production cards glued together, I am hopeful that to resolve this hobby discussion its owner will allow the out-of-holder anaysis. In the case of the 8 Wagner, based on what its sister card (Conlon Plank) realized in the 2009 REA auction, an "A" designation will be a financial death knell. So in my lifetime, and probably that of my childrens/grandchildrens, that card will never be voluntarily re examined.