Revisiting the T206 Wagner "strip"

[jimonym]

Thanks for starting this thread, Ted. I too spent several minutes closely examing the strip in Baltimore. Aside from the color differences already mentioned (on Young and Bowerman), a close look also shows that the ink color used for the name and team info and used to frame the image portion of the cards is quite clearly black, and not the dark brown that was used for all series of regular production. Based on these things and the overall look of the thing, I walked away convinced that the strip is undeniably cool but that it doesn't derive from the general production of T206 cards.

[E93]

I also viewed the strip at the National under a loupe. Ted and I discussed this at the show and we disagree. It seemed clear to me that the lines between cards were printed. I do not believe separate cards were pasted onto the strip. In my opinion, it was a test run. This particular one was sent to Wagner to try to entice him to sign on with the project by showing him how good they looked. Meanwhile, I think that back at ALC, they looked at what was potentially a final product and decided to make some further changes after the sample sent to Wagner. Color changes were made to some cards in what would be final production decisions.

In my opinion, it does not make sense that they would cut cards off a sheet and then paste them back together. If it was sent to Wagner to impress him and convince him to sign on, why not just send him cut up cards? Why paste them back onto a sheet? I think they just cut a strip off of a sheet in the place that included Wagner's own image. They included a few others adjacent to his to give him a better sense of the set as a whole. It was close enough to a final production stage that the changes that might be made later (like adding color) would be relatively inconsequential in terms of giving Wagner a sense of what the cards would look like in general.

Of course this is speculation, but it is based on quite a bit of information and a close inspection of the piece under a 10X loupe at the National. Sometimes Ted and I disagree and I mean no disrespect. I know that Mark Macrae had similar questions as Ted when we talked at the National. Good, honest, knowledgable people can disagree.
JimB

[E93]

I will also add that even if they were cut off different sheets and pasted together on a strip to send to Wagner, that would not affect the importance or value of this piece in slightest IMHO.
JimB

[Matt]

Originally Posted by E93

I also viewed the strip at the National under a loupe. Ted and I discussed this at the show and we disagree. It seemed clear to me that the lines between cards were printed. I do not believe separate cards were pasted onto the strip.

Somehow you didn't make it into Ted's post where he spoke of the universal consensus of the hobby experts he spoke with at the show.

[barrysloate]

Hobby veterans often disagree on any number of issues, but this seems to be a very odd one not to have a consensus. Either it's a continuous strip or the cards are pasted on; wouldn't everybody who looked at it closely agree on one or the other? I don't get this one.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Hobby veterans often disagree on any number of issues, but this seems to be a very odd one not to have a consensus. Either it's a continuous strip or the cards are pasted on; wouldn't everybody who looked at it closely agree on one or the other? I don't get this one.

The fact that Ted and his panel of experts examined it while it is slabbed is a factor. I think in one of the previous threads about the strip, a former owner, who obviously handled and examined it unslabbed, said that the cards are a continuous strip and not individual ones pasted together.

I would search for the exact post if I thought it would make a difference.

[tedzan]

Jim B

1st....The color differences of the Bowerman and CYoung with respect to the other 3 cards on this strip totally contradicts the 6-color
process that American Litho. used to print their standard production T206's. Therefore, I have to question your observation......
"I think they just cut a strip off of a sheet in the place that included Wagner's own image."

2nd....We haven't discussed the back of this strip. The back is simply a strip of thin white cardboard that appears to have been pieced
together. And, not the type of cardboard backing typical of T206 cards.

Finally....Jim, how do you account for the vertical lines between each card ?
They are not printed lines.


Regards,
TED Z

[Peter_Spaeth]

Do we know who owns it?

[E93]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Jim B

1st....The color differences of the Bowerman and CYoung with respect to the other 3 cards on this strip totally contradicts the 6-color
process that American Litho. used to print their standard production T206's. Therefore, I have to question your observation......
"I think they just cut a strip off of a sheet in the place that included Wagner's own image."

2nd....We haven't discussed the back of this strip. The back is simply a strip of thin white cardboard that appears to have been pieced
together. And, not the type of cardboard backing typical of T206 cards.

Finally....Jim, how do you account for the vertical lines between each card ?
They are not printed lines.


Regards,
TED Z

1. I do not understand why ALC could not have printed a sheet that looked like that.

2. The back did not look pieced together to me. It looked like one piece. And under a loupe it looked just like any other T206 cardboard (without the ad printed on it).

3. I think they simply printed lines between cards on this particular pre-production test run.

JimB

[Matt]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Hobby veterans often disagree on any number of issues, but this seems to be a very odd one not to have a consensus. Either it's a continuous strip or the cards are pasted on; wouldn't everybody who looked at it closely agree on one or the other? I don't get this one.

This may simply be the result of two different approaches to observation. To oversimplify the issue (it's really a scale), some folks approach things by simply making observations on what they see. Others process what they see with other information they already knew to form their observations.

As an example, Jim may have seen the lines that appear to be printed between the cards and said the lines were printed there. Ted, knowing that for regular T206 printings no lines were printed between cards, may have seen the lines and observed they must be the result of cards being cut and then adhered adjacently.

Again, the above is an example, I can't actually say how either of them processed their encounter with the strip - just using it as an illustration to answer Barry's question.

[Doug]

Since the SGC guys read the board, maybe one of them could chime in on the subject since they are the ones that slabbed it?

[mkdltn]

It may be possible that the strip is indeed "cobbled" together while at the same time being a single continuous strip. This is possible if you understand how these items were printed. The key to this is the lithographic transfer process. I am not going to explain it in this post but will provide a link to a site that I have been working on to explain how chromolithographs were printed in the mid 19th century up until the early to mid 20th century. If you read the making of a cigar label .pdf keep in mind that in lieu of the keyline drawing the halftone photo of the player with the border such as that of Wagner most certainly served as the key instead.

http://mjdalton.blogspot.com/

[teetwoohsix]

I guess my questions must've came across wrong about this strip, so I'll try again.........

I am confused about the "making" of the strip. When I imagine them pasting the fronts on to the strip (am I understanding this right?) it seems as though this strip would be "thicker" than a normal T206. This is why I asked about the thickness........

As far as the "paste" itself, what did they use as paste back then? Would it hold up this well 100 years later?

It just seems like it would've been easier to print the strip on one solid piece of paper than to painstakenly paste each subject's fronts together.

Sincerely, Clayton

JimB you were posting while I was trying to figure out a way to ask questions without coming across as "attacking".......but what you said makes the most sense to me.