FYI....T206 AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 fr..350 nofr..460 confirmed lists

[tedzan]

Double post.

[White Borders]

Hi Ted,

Thanks so much for posting this list. However, when I count the cards you have listed as 350 Frame, I come up with only 190. Also, Mc Elveen is listed twice, so that makes the list 189, which is 3 short of 192 confirmed cards.

Best Regards,
Craig

[tedzan]

Thanks for checking that out.....my typo errors.

The AB 350 (frame) list has been corrected to reflect 192 cards.

And, although I've included Mowery, I am not confident that this card
was printed with the AB 350 (frame) back.


TED Z

[White Borders]

Based on Ted Z's list of American Beauty confirmed cards, I've put together a list of cards that appear to be AB No-Prints. If you can confirm any of them as having an American Beauty back, please let us know.

Thanks and Best Regards,
Craig


AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (Frame)...21 No-Prints

Cy Barger...Portrait...Rochester
George Brown...Batting...Washington
Bobby Byrne...Batting...StL Cardinals
Jimmy Collins...Portrait...Minneapolis
Monte Cross...Ready to Throw...Indianapolis

Bill Dahlen...Portrait...Brooklyn
Ray Demmitt...Standing...NY Highlanders
Joe Doyle...NY...NY Highlanders
Kid Elberfeld...Portrait...Washington
Dolly Gray...Follow Thru...Washington

Bob Groom...Follow Thru...Washington
Red Kleinow...Catching...NY Highlanders
Carl Lundgren...Ready to Throw...Kansas City
Al Mattern...Portrait...Boston Doves
Larry McLean...Catching...Cincinnati

Bill O'Hara...Batting...NY Giants
Ambrose Puttman...Follow Thru...Louisville
Bob Rhoades...Right Arm...Cleveland
Claude Rossman...Portrait...Detroit
Spike Shannon...Fielding...Kansas City
Frank Smith...White Cap...Chi White Sox


AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (No Frame)...20 No-Prints

Red Ames...Hands above Head...NY Giants
Heinie Berger...Ready to Throw...Cleveland
Bill Bradley...Batting...Cleveland
Mordecai Brown...Chicago on Shirt...Chi Cubs
Ty Cobb...Bat off Shoulder...Detroit

Harry Davis...Davis on Front...Phil A's
Mike Donlin...Batting...NY Giants
Patsy Dougherty...Fielding (Arm Up)...Chi White Sox
Hughie Jennings...One Hand Showing...Detroit
Addie Joss...Pitching...Cleveland

Nap Lajoie...Batting...Cleveland
Tommy Leach...Fielding...Pittsburgh
Harry McIntyre...Follow Thru...Brooklyn & Chi
Charles O'Leary...Fielding...Detroit
Fred Snodgrass...Catching...NY Giants

Joe Tinker...Bat off Shoulder...Chi Cubs
Doc White...Throwing...Chi White Sox
Kaiser Wilhelm...Batting...Brooklyn
Vic Willis...Throwing...StL Cardinals
Cy Young...Glove...Cleveland


AMERICAN BEAUTY 460...30 No-Prints

Home Run Baker...Follow Thru...Phil A's
Chief Bender...No Trees...Phil A's
Mordecai Brown...Chicago on Shirt...Chi Cubs
Harry Davis...Davis on Front...Phil A's
Mike Donlin...Batting...NY Giants

Mickey Doolan...Batting...Phil Phillies
Patsy Dougherty...Fielding (Arm Up)...Chi White Sox
Tom Downey...Batting...Cincinnati
Larry Doyle...Batting...NY Giants
Kid Elberfeld...Fielding...Washington

John Frill...Follow Thru...NY Highlanders
Clark Griffith...Batting...Cincinnati
Walter Johnson...Pitching...Washington
Addie Joss...Pitching...Cleveland
Red Kleinow...Catching...Boston Red Sox

Ed Konetchy...Glove Low...StL Cardinals
Sherry Magee...Batting...Phil Phillies
Harry McIntyre...Follow Thru...Brooklyn & Chi
Danny Murphy...Batting...Phil A's
Simon Nichols...Batting...Phil A's

Charles O'Leary...Fielding...Detroit
Ed Reulbach...No Glove...Chi Cubs
Nap Rucker...Pitching...Brooklyn
Cy Seymour...Pitching...NY Giants
Fred Snodgrass...Catching...NY Giants

Jake Stahl...Glove Showing...Boston Red Sox
Gabby Street...Catching...Washington
Jeff Sweeney...Fielding...NY Highlanders
Vic Willis...Throwing...StL Cardinals
Cy Young...Glove...Cleveland

[tedzan]

29 of the 30 cards you are looking for with AB 460 backs will NOT be found. All 29 of these cards
are 350/460 series subjects, which have been confirmed with the Red HINDU backs. The AB 460
subjects and the Red HINDU subjects are mutually exclusive in the 350/460 series.

John Frill is a 460-only card. He was transferred to Jersey City in the Eastern League in July 1910,
well before the AB 460 were printed in the Spring of 1911. So, I don't think we will find him with
an AB 460 back.


Best regards,

TED Z

[White Borders]

Yes, it is very unlikely that those will be found with an AB460 back. But, the engineer in me says that because this mutual exclusion principle (for 350/460 Series, fronts with AB460 backs will also be found with Uzit backs, but won't be found with BL460 or Red Hindu backs) is based on a sample of the population rather than the entire population of T206's ever produced, there remains a statistical (though perhaps very slight) uncertainty in the mutual exclusion principle.

And if we state that these will not be found with an AB460 back, then people will be less likely to look for them; thus reducing the chance of finding an exception to the principle if there is one. Kinda like in quantum physics where the act of observing affects the observation.

This is all the more important with T206 because exceptions to the rules have been demonstrated. Some examples include:

The 150 Only group does not have any Sweet Cap 150 Factory 649 Overprint backs EXCEPT for Powers.

The 350 Only group has AB350 (Frame) backs EXCEPT for Nichols Batting, which has an AB350 (No Frame) back.

The 350-460 group have all been confirmed with Piedmont 350-460 Factory 42 backs EXCEPT for Tinker Bat Off.


And please understand that it is not my intention to demean your work in any way. We would not have achieved our current level of understanding of T206 without your efforts.

Always Best Regards
Craig

[tedzan]

Regarding your......
"....is based on a sample of the population rather than the entire population of T206's ever produced, this
mutual exclusion principle (for 350/460 Series, fronts with AB460 backs will also be found with Uzit backs,
but won't be found with BL460 or Red Hindu backs) "

From an engineer (EE) to an engineer....my "mutually exclusive" rules (AB 460/UZIT vs BL 460/Red HINDU)
are not simply based on the sampling of certain populations of T206 cards. The more significant factor that
I based these rules on.....is timeline.

We have American Litho. (ALC) documentation that dates the printing and release of the UZIT cards to the
Spring of 1911. The AB 460 cards were destined to Durham, NC (Factory 42); therefore, they were printed
simultaneously with the UZIT cards. I am suggesting that sheets of T206's (comprised of approx. 30 cards)
with the same fronts were printed with both these backs.

Prior to that, in the Fall/Winter of 1910, ALC used sheets of T206 fronts (comprised of approx. 30 cards) to
print both the BL 460 and the Red HINDU backs on them.

Furthermore, the 30 subjects on the AB 460/UZIT sheets complemented the 30 subjects of the BL 460/Red
HINDU sheets. Of course, this scenario applies only to the 55 cards in the 350/460 series and the 6 super-
prints. Certainly, the absence of any of these 6 super-prints with AB 460 and UZIT backs serves to support
this theory.


Craig

The Nicholls (batting) card was intended to be a 350/460 series subject; so, this is why this card was
printed with an AB 350 (No Frame) back. However, upon being traded to Cleveland, Nicholls ended his
Major League BB career on April 25, 1910 and returned to his farm in Maryland. Therefore, it is fair to
conclude that ALC did not print his card with any 460 series backs.

Also, I don't think by stating that these cards do not exist with an AB 460 back, that collectors will be
less likely to look for them. There are always a number of guys out there that are motivated in finding
exceptions to the rules.....and, that is fine, it's the American way


TED Z

[tonyo]

Originally Posted by White Borders

And if we state that these will not be found with an AB460 back, then people will be less likely to look for them; thus reducing the chance of finding an exception to the principle if there is one. Kinda like in quantum physics where the act of observing affects the observation.

Has any other pre-war set garnered comparison to quantum physics? Love it!