T207....indeed a strange set....let' talk about it ?

marcdelpercio · #1 06-04-2010, 09:30 PM

Ted,
Are you suggesting that the players contracted directly with the printing company rather than with ATC? Otherwise, I don't understand why the use of a different printer would affect the player selection as presumably all of the same players would remain under contract for any ATC release, regardless of the printer they used.

kmac32 · #2 06-04-2010, 10:13 PM

Jason L,

You have one more than me but love the Cubbies

tedzan · #3 06-04-2010, 10:57 PM

Originally, in the early months of 1909 the Greater New York Baseball Association (GNYBA) was mailing out letters to
the players on behalf of American Lithographic Co. seeking their permission to portray them in the forthcoming T206
set. The well known Neal Ball letter is an example of this. And, I would say this practice continued by GNYBA (or some
other intermediary) when new players were added in subsequent sets of that era.

So, my point here is, that the Rights to portray the players was not directly related to the American Tobacco Co. (ATC);
but, the outfit doing the printing.

The influence that ATC had in the printing of the cards was related to the advertising info on the backs of these cards.
For instance, in the ATC divesture period (early 1911), when the American Beauty, Piedmont, or Sweet Caporal brands
were transferred to the L & M plant in Durham, NC....the backs were changed to reflect this new Factory #42 location.

TED Z

marcdelpercio · #4 06-04-2010, 11:37 PM

Thanks for the info Ted. I always assumed that the players contracted with the ATC as suggested by the 1912 Sporting News article which stated that the tobacco manufacturers collaborated with sportswriters to help secure the printing rights of the players (or at least Wagner specifically). I figured that once the rights had been secured by ATC, they would then sub-contract with the printer to physically produce the cards.

I realize that the Ball letter does directly reference American Litho so perhaps they retained the printing rights rather than the tobacco companies. If that is the case, then your T207 theory certainly is plausible.

Bridwell · #5 06-05-2010, 10:58 AM

Good points, Ted and Marc. Perhaps American Litho was unable to strike an agreement with Liggett & Myers Tobacco Co. after the break-up of ATC. If I was with ATC, and had been using American Litho, I would not want American Litho to just take the authorizations from the baseball players and create a set for Liggett & Myers. That would be disloyal to ATC, and there was probably a contract between ATC and American Litho about the development of the T206 set. ATC & Liggett became competitors in 1911. As we've shown, most or all of the T207's were distributed by Liggett & Myers, not ATC.

Furthermore, the T207 cards seem very different from T206's and other issues. Another observation is that none of the images used are the same as the T206 images, I don't believe. It certainly seems likely, as Ted said, that a different printer & designer was used. If American Litho already had the authorization and the artwork, they could have included Cobb, Eddie Collins, Evers and other stars that were in T206. They could have easily made sepia-toned images from the T206 images. But they didn't.

That's why, Ted, I feel the ATC break-up had an influence on T207.

Ron

tedzan · #6 06-05-2010, 04:53 PM

I see your point since the great majority of the T207 backs are Recruit; therefore, the T207's were inserted
in the L & M packs. But, we still don't know what printing company L & M contracted to produce the T207's.

But, we do know that the other 1912 BB card set, ATC's T202, was produced by American Lithographic, ad-
vertising the Hassan brand (which was retained by ATC). And,the T202's virtually include a full complement
of the stars and regular players of the T205 set..

Here is the bigger picture of how the various brands were allocated amongst the four Tobacco Company's in
the Fall of 1911 by the divesture ruling.

Liggett & Myers was given about 28 % of the cigarette market:

American Beauty
Coupon
DRUMmond
Fatima
Home Run
Imperiales
King Bee
Piedmont
Recruit
Red Man

P. Lorillard received 15 % of the nation's tobacco business:

Egyptian Deities
Helmar
Honest
Mogul
Murad
Mogul
Polar Bear
Turkish Trophies
Union Leader

American Tobacco retained 37 % of the tobacco market:

Bull Durham
Hassan
Mecca
Sweet Caporal
Tuxedo

R. J. Reynolds received 19% of the tobacco market.

TED Z

Bridwell · #7 06-05-2010, 05:33 PM

Hi Ted,

I agree with what you're saying. You can definately add Napoleon to the Liggett & Myers list. I have a dated cigarette pack to prove it, dated 7/1/1912 with L & M logo. I also saw a web site that claimed that Broadleaf and Cycle went to L & M, as well. One site I saw, said that 15 smaller domestic brands went to L & M, besides the ones you listed. Thus I think that would include Napoleon, Broadleaf and Cycle.

Ron

Bridwell · #8 06-06-2010, 06:50 PM

I was watching 2 auctions on ebay today: a T207 Matty McIntyre SGC 30 and an E93 Davy Jones SGC 30. They were both advertised as a 'tough card'. The McIntyre sold for $32.99 and the Jones went for $133.50.

Here's the populations of the 2 cards (SGC/PSA combined):

McIntyre: 31 graded, with 18 better
Jones: 59 graded, with 32 better

T207 seems like an undervalued set, compared to E93. I would think that the McIntyre is the tougher card. Granted, the Jones was a better looking card for an SGC 30, but it sold for 4 times as much!

Ron

marcdelpercio · #9 06-06-2010, 07:27 PM

Geez...don't say that Ron. These are tough enough already. The last thing we need is more people realizing just how scarce and difficult this set is

JasonL · #10 06-07-2010, 08:00 AM

if you factor in a particular BIN listing, you would think otherwise...check out the $2000 ask for the Ward Miller which is barely a card! outrageous. That is one of the set's toughest cards, no doubt, but that is just silly.

(until someone pays for it, then I am the stupid one, I suppose!)

tbob · #11 06-07-2010, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bridwell

I was watching 2 auctions on ebay today: a T207 Matty McIntyre SGC 30 and an E93 Davy Jones SGC 30. They were both advertised as a 'tough card'. The McIntyre sold for $32.99 and the Jones went for $133.50.

Here's the populations of the 2 cards (SGC/PSA combined):

McIntyre: 31 graded, with 18 better
Jones: 59 graded, with 32 better

T207 seems like an undervalued set, compared to E93. I would think that the McIntyre is the tougher card. Granted, the Jones was a better looking card for an SGC 30, but it sold for 4 times as much!

Ron

Ron- I agree the T207 is an undervalued set. I didn't have any problem finding McIntyres when I put the sets together but the Jones WAS a tough card to find in the E93. I stick by my guns on that one, it was the last card I found each time I put together a nice E93 set. Maybe there's been a lot of resubmissions on that one but anytime you can find a nice Davy Jones, you grab it.

tedzan · #12 06-07-2010, 05:28 PM

I reluctantly started collecting this set in the late 1980's, since I picked up a Lowdermilk. I figured that I had it made
by starting off with this "toughie". I was naive, because I quickly discovered that Lewis and Miller were tougher. Any-
how, here are some tidbits I've gathered regarding these three cards......

Lou Lowdermilk.....pitched in 16 games in 1911 for the St Louis Cardinals and only in 4 games in 1912. So, my guess
is that he was short-printed since he had a short career in the majors.

Ward Miller....In 1911 he played with Montreal (Eastern Lge.). Joined the Cubs in 1912 for 86 games and batted .307.
My thinking is that there was a final print run of T207's late in 1912 (as there are quite a few subjects in this set that
started their Major Lge. careers in 1912). Ward Miller would have been printed in last series. And, typical of many last
series press runs, they most likely were short-printed. Here is a 1913 photo featuring Miller and his teammates at the
Polo Grounds......
http://www.flickr.com/photos/library...ss/3641570218/

"Irving" Lewis....a big mystery, as he appears no where in the BB books. I think this card is an error. The T207 printer's
must have confused him with Jack (John David) Lewis who played in 18 games for Boston (AL) in Sept 1911. Therefore,
due to his very brief career, they printed very few cards of this "Irving Lewis" guy.

Vic Saier....wasn't tough for me. I lucked out in the early '90s, as I acquired a 40-card lot of T207's that included Saier.

Anyhow, let's hear your thoughts on these T207 toughies, or any others that you found difficult to get ?

TED Z

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