T207....indeed a strange set....let' talk about it ?

[Bridwell]

I was watching 2 auctions on ebay today: a T207 Matty McIntyre SGC 30 and an E93 Davy Jones SGC 30. They were both advertised as a 'tough card'. The McIntyre sold for $32.99 and the Jones went for $133.50.

Here's the populations of the 2 cards (SGC/PSA combined):

McIntyre: 31 graded, with 18 better
Jones: 59 graded, with 32 better

T207 seems like an undervalued set, compared to E93. I would think that the McIntyre is the tougher card. Granted, the Jones was a better looking card for an SGC 30, but it sold for 4 times as much!

Ron

[marcdelpercio]

Geez...don't say that Ron. These are tough enough already. The last thing we need is more people realizing just how scarce and difficult this set is

[JasonL]

if you factor in a particular BIN listing, you would think otherwise...check out the $2000 ask for the Ward Miller which is barely a card! outrageous. That is one of the set's toughest cards, no doubt, but that is just silly.

(until someone pays for it, then I am the stupid one, I suppose!)

[tbob]

Originally Posted by Bridwell

I was watching 2 auctions on ebay today: a T207 Matty McIntyre SGC 30 and an E93 Davy Jones SGC 30. They were both advertised as a 'tough card'. The McIntyre sold for $32.99 and the Jones went for $133.50.

Here's the populations of the 2 cards (SGC/PSA combined):

McIntyre: 31 graded, with 18 better
Jones: 59 graded, with 32 better

T207 seems like an undervalued set, compared to E93. I would think that the McIntyre is the tougher card. Granted, the Jones was a better looking card for an SGC 30, but it sold for 4 times as much!

Ron

Ron- I agree the T207 is an undervalued set. I didn't have any problem finding McIntyres when I put the sets together but the Jones WAS a tough card to find in the E93. I stick by my guns on that one, it was the last card I found each time I put together a nice E93 set. Maybe there's been a lot of resubmissions on that one but anytime you can find a nice Davy Jones, you grab it.

[tedzan]

I reluctantly started collecting this set in the late 1980's, since I picked up a Lowdermilk. I figured that I had it made
by starting off with this "toughie". I was naive, because I quickly discovered that Lewis and Miller were tougher. Any-
how, here are some tidbits I've gathered regarding these three cards......

Lou Lowdermilk.....pitched in 16 games in 1911 for the St Louis Cardinals and only in 4 games in 1912. So, my guess
is that he was short-printed since he had a short career in the majors.

Ward Miller....In 1911 he played with Montreal (Eastern Lge.). Joined the Cubs in 1912 for 86 games and batted .307.
My thinking is that there was a final print run of T207's late in 1912 (as there are quite a few subjects in this set that
started their Major Lge. careers in 1912). Ward Miller would have been printed in last series. And, typical of many last
series press runs, they most likely were short-printed. Here is a 1913 photo featuring Miller and his teammates at the
Polo Grounds......
http://www.flickr.com/photos/library...ss/3641570218/

"Irving" Lewis....a big mystery, as he appears no where in the BB books. I think this card is an error. The T207 printer's
must have confused him with Jack (John David) Lewis who played in 18 games for Boston (AL) in Sept 1911. Therefore,
due to his very brief career, they printed very few cards of this "Irving Lewis" guy.

Vic Saier....wasn't tough for me. I lucked out in the early '90s, as I acquired a 40-card lot of T207's that included Saier.

Anyhow, let's hear your thoughts on these T207 toughies, or any others that you found difficult to get ?


TED Z

[tedzan]

Hey guys,

Anyone out there figure out who the printer was that had barrels of BROWN ink to print the T207's ?


TED Z

[Bridwell]

Hi Ted,

Keith Olbermann wrote a good article on Irving Lewis and his 'career'. See:

http://research.sabr.org/journals/ir...-who-never-was

Ron

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey guys,

Anyone out there figure out who the printer was that had barrels of BROWN ink to print the T207's ?


TED Z

Ted - A real shot in the dark but the pack in your initial post reads "H. Ellis & Co. Baltimore."

There was a large lithograph company named A. Hoen & Company based in Baltimore with another factory in Richmond, VA.

A. Hoen printed the covers for cigar boxes. The link below contains the line "In the newer Richmond plant the quality of inks and paper stock, as well as the multi-layer lithography process itself saw great advances, to the point where most Hoen-produced covers and cigar boxes from the 1890s forward still retain their original hues after more than a century. "

http://www.perfessorbill.com/artists/ahoen.shtml

[tedzan]

Thanks....I hadn't seen that article.

But, it still leaves me wondering about this Irving Lewis card.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Tim

I have researched A. Hoen & Co. and cannot find anything that suggests that they printed the T207's.
Another Litho. company in Baltimore was the Isaac Friedenwald Co. that produced colorful non-sports
cards at the turn of the Century. But, I could not find any ties indicating that they printed the T207's.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Your earlier discussion regarding the Anonymous backs is interesting, as it reinforces my speculation
that an independent printing firm produced the T207's.

1st........T207's that have Anonymous backs with "Factory #3 Louisiana" were indeed destined to the
COUPON cigarette factory.
2nd.......T207's that have Anonymous backs with "Factory #25" were most likely destined to the SWEET
CAPORAL cigarette factory in Richmond, Va.

Federal Law required that L & M identify the Factory #'s on the backs of all cards. However, they could
not print their corresponding brand names on the T207 cards, since ATC still owned the Copyright's to
them. This factual is substantiated since American Litho. (ALC), subsequently, issued their T213-2 & 3
sets with the COUPON brand name.
Now consider this, if ALC had printed the T207's, they would have printed these brand names (instead
of leaving them Anonymous).


Recall, the Fall of 1911 ATC divesture ruling assigned ATC and L & M the following tobacco brands........

American Tobacco retained 37 % of the tobacco market including:

Bull Durham
Hassan
Mecca
Sweet Caporal
Tuxedo

Liggett & Myers was given about 28 % of the cigarette market including:

American Beauty
Coupon
DRUMmond
Fatima
Home Run
Imperiales
King Bee
Piedmont
Recruit
Red Man



TED Z

[marcdelpercio]

That makes a lot of sense Ted. Though I have long suspected the Factory 3 Anons to be an intended Coupon release, it does seem strange that they would use entirely different artwork (and quite possibly another printer as you have suggested) and then revert back to American Litho with previously used artwork just a couple of years later with the T213's. Perhaps L&M was in a transitional phase and legally unable to use American Litho during the divestiture procedings (which would have been occurring just as the T207's were beginning the design phase) but then was able to renegotiate with American Litho in time for the kickoff of the T213-2 release 2 years later.

[Bridwell]

After working on sets of T206 for 25 years and T207 for the last 2 years, I've noticed some interesting comparisons between the 2 sets.

The most common commons in T207 have 70-80 graded examples (SGC & PSA). The most common commons in T206 have 400+ graded examples (SGC & PSA). Yet those commons sell for about the same price as T206's, in similar condition. I guess there is about 5 times more collector demand for T206's than T207's.

The toughest non-HOF's in T207 have only 20-25 graded. Southern Leaguers in T206 have about 200 graded. The tougher non-HOF's in T206 (such as Dahlen/Brooklyn or Frank Smith/Chi.&Boston have about 180 graded.

So the ratio of tough T207 pop numbers to commons is less than 1:3, while the tough T206's are in greater supply and have a ratio of almost 1:2. Hence, the tougher T207's are surprisingly hard to find, if any condition. They can sell for ridiculous prices, sometimes, while other times can be found at near the common price. The opportunity to find some rare cards at great deals helped draw me to keep working on this set. From the set registries and networking, I can identify about 10 sets, or near sets of T207's. There may be a few other 'raw' sets out there. With a total population of 20-25 of some cards, that leaves very few T207 cards in circulation for collectors to bid on. The 20-25 pop number might even be overstated, since there have been some crossovers occuring in T207's. There seem to be about 20-30 players in T207 that are the toughest ones to find. The toughest of all are from the Broadleaf Class, which includes Broadleaf, Cycle and Anonymous backs.

The most common T207's are all from the Recruit Class, which includes Recruit, Napoleon and Anonymous backs. The 10 cards I researched seem to have high populations of Recruit backs, but hardly any Napoleon backs and I'm thinking there are no Anonymous backs of these. The 10 sample cards are: Devlin, Konetchy, Wilie, H. McIntire, Wolverton, Devore, Simon, Crandall, Knabe and Covington. So it leads to more theories. I'd say that a portion of the Recruit Series cards, perhaps 50 players, were double printed with Recruit backs, but not made with Anonymous backs. I have no idea why. That would help explain why some Recruit Class cards have populations of 25-35, while many others have pops of 60-80. It also seems that the low pop Recruit Class cards are regularly found with Anonymous backs, when they do turn up.

Perhaps T207 collectors can share their thoughts and keep this thread going... As Ted said, it is a very strange set.

Ron R