T207....indeed a strange set....let' talk about it ?

[marcdelpercio]

Thanks for the info Tim. I still consider your articles the "bible" of this set and I refer to them constantly. It is easy to imagine additional series scheduled to be released as with the T206 set. In that set there are obviously certain players/series that appear only with certain backs. So I imagine with the T207 set, there may have been other brand backs that were originally on board with the set and scheduled to release over the next several months. It is inexplicable to me, for example, that there are no Piedmont T207's as that brand was the flagship of the T206 and T205 sets. Perhaps that series was scheduled to release but was aborted due to the ATC breakup or other reasons. Or perhaps Piedmonts are the Anonymous Factory 25.

One thing that suggests AGAINST a future series with a lot of stars and other big name players is that the later Broadleaf/Cycle class series that WAS released and comprises a full 1/4 of the set, contains a grand total of zero Hall of Famers or major stars. Logically it doesn't seem likely to me that an even LATER series than that would suddenly be overflowing with all of the big name players which were omitted in the previous series.

[JasonL]

Thanks for starting this one, Ted. The most fascinating part about this set, to me (aside from the lack of starpower that has been discussed thoroughly here) is the card surface, or gloss that was mentioned once above in passing. Perhaps I am way off base, but I find that to be the most significantly unique thing about this set, when compared to its contemporary issues. Are there others with this same gloss? what is known about it? was it a new technique in making cards at the time? perhaps this might narrow down what printers could have been making these cards?
any thoughts on this?

I have endeavored to collect the Cubs team set. I have completed it, less the extremely tough Ward Miller. The degree to which the gloss is intact on some of the lionel Carter examples that I own, is fairly impressive, in my humble opinion. Here's half of the 10-card team set...very unique cards, indeed!

PS - Drew: I don't suppose you have a beater duplicate of Ward Miller ?

[toppcat]

Not sure it was mentioned prior but T207's seem to have more top to bottom miscuts than other tobacco sets. I wonder if the gloss added some friction in the cutting process that led to this?

[Bridwell]

Hi Tim,

That list you made of the next 100 players would make a great addition to the set. I'd certainly be collecting them, if they were made. Lots of big names in there.

I'm thinking that the designer of the set was unable to secure the written authorizations of most of the star players. I do agree that there are enough unpublished players that the original design could have been 300 players, instead of 200. They may have, very simply, sent authorization requests to every team, who handed them out to each player. Some came back signed and some didn't. They may have tried a 2nd time when there was light response. They probably weren't offering any payment, so the stars may have passed on signing it. By then, the stars were getting paid for various endorsements but the common players were happy to just be included. Once they had about 150 authorizations they started making the cards. They later added another series to reach 200. That would explain Marc's observation about the lack of stars in the Broadleaf class/series which was printed a little later. The lesser players might even have asked to be included, while the top players didn't care either way. Maybe a few more authorizations trickled in, but not enough to add another series of 50. Or production was halted, by then, for other reasons. Just wild theories.

Ron

[tedzan]

Sorry guys, but I don't agree with the contention that the 1911 divesture of the ATC monopoly had anything to do with
the make up of the T207 set. I base this on the fact that American Lithographic continued printing white-bordered sets
(T213, T214, and T215) well into 1919. And, their T205, T201, and T202 sets from 1911 to 1912. One constant factor in
all these sets is the repetiveness of the same subjects (stars and commons) from the T206 set.

Therefore, as I've speculated in my initial post here....this set was not printed by American Litho. For whatever reasons,
ATC contracted a different printer to produce these cards. And, therein lies the enigma of why so many of the usual stars
and commons particular to all the above noted Tobacco sets are not in the T207. In my opinion, this is really the only ex-
planation that makes sense.....what are your thoughts on this ?

Eventually, given a sufficient amount of research, we will discover who printed the T207's.


TED Z

[marcdelpercio]

Ted,
Are you suggesting that the players contracted directly with the printing company rather than with ATC? Otherwise, I don't understand why the use of a different printer would affect the player selection as presumably all of the same players would remain under contract for any ATC release, regardless of the printer they used.

[kmac32]

Jason L,

You have one more than me but love the Cubbies

[tedzan]

Originally, in the early months of 1909 the Greater New York Baseball Association (GNYBA) was mailing out letters to
the players on behalf of American Lithographic Co. seeking their permission to portray them in the forthcoming T206
set. The well known Neal Ball letter is an example of this. And, I would say this practice continued by GNYBA (or some
other intermediary) when new players were added in subsequent sets of that era.

So, my point here is, that the Rights to portray the players was not directly related to the American Tobacco Co. (ATC);
but, the outfit doing the printing.

The influence that ATC had in the printing of the cards was related to the advertising info on the backs of these cards.
For instance, in the ATC divesture period (early 1911), when the American Beauty, Piedmont, or Sweet Caporal brands
were transferred to the L & M plant in Durham, NC....the backs were changed to reflect this new Factory #42 location.


TED Z

[tedzan]

I see your point since the great majority of the T207 backs are Recruit; therefore, the T207's were inserted
in the L & M packs. But, we still don't know what printing company L & M contracted to produce the T207's.

But, we do know that the other 1912 BB card set, ATC's T202, was produced by American Lithographic, ad-
vertising the Hassan brand (which was retained by ATC). And,the T202's virtually include a full complement
of the stars and regular players of the T205 set..

Here is the bigger picture of how the various brands were allocated amongst the four Tobacco Company's in
the Fall of 1911 by the divesture ruling.


Liggett & Myers was given about 28 % of the cigarette market:

American Beauty
Coupon
DRUMmond
Fatima
Home Run
Imperiales
King Bee
Piedmont
Recruit
Red Man


P. Lorillard received 15 % of the nation's tobacco business:

Egyptian Deities
Helmar
Honest
Mogul
Murad
Mogul
Polar Bear
Turkish Trophies
Union Leader


American Tobacco retained 37 % of the tobacco market:

Bull Durham
Hassan
Mecca
Sweet Caporal
Tuxedo

R. J. Reynolds received 19% of the tobacco market.



TED Z