I'm almost POSITIVE this card features Shoeless Joe...

[tbob]

I think it will always remain a mystery. It could by Joe, but just as easily Terry Turner or Ivy Olson.
Turner seated with Jackson, the other two photos are of Ivy.

[tbob]

Turner's T207

[bmarlowe1]

Peter is as usual correct and his comments not only show considerable common sense, but also uncommonly good understanding of the this particular subject. Given what has been posted - it is simply not possible to tell who is sliding into third. If a high res scan will show more detail - let's see it. If more detail is not discernable - then we'll never know unless someone finds the original photo. Absent that , there should be no conclusion as to who it is.

I think the board has made a lot of progress recently with respect to jumping all over wishfull speculation as to images, There used to be a lot more of it, and it's almost always been wrong.

I'm sure Brett hasn't seen any of the numerous past threads on this subject - so I don't mean to jump all over him personally. I just don't like it because it feeds into the mind set that has allowed for so much mis-representation in the past.

[familytoad]

Folks,

It's not the ears or nose we need to be concerned with.

I think the T202 is Joe, but we need to zoom in to see his lips.

Please compare with this official, authentic photo of Joe before you make your decision.

Joe ain't grizzled. He's purty.

I think some guys are hoping for sure now and will back it up because they went an bought every T202 of this out there. I looked at several different sites that I am sure would have these cards and guess what?


Someone has bought every one of these at asking prices. No way to prove its him but watch for the guys that are battling for it to be and I am sure we will know who bought into an unproved hype Might as well buy shiny stuff with that gamble!

[Abravefan11]

Looking at the Cleveland Home uniforms you will see that in 1910 and 1912 the collars were dark. In 1911 they were white.

If color wasn't added to the photo on the card the picture is from 1910 or 1912. The photo posted by other members of Jackson sliding into third could be 1911 but hard to say since the collar is turned up.

[ChiefBenderForever]

Good find Tim ! So now we have the "magic collar theory" and no examples currently for sale. Great observation Brett, I think it might be him and interested to see how it pans out. Simple reason as to why it hasn't been noticed before- T206 Maddness !!

[botn]

If Tim is correct, that the Naps uniforms did not have the black collar in 1911 and color was not added to the T202 photo, then the player sliding could not be Shoeless. He played the last 20 games of the 1910 season with Cleveland and only 2 of those games were against the White Sox and the games were in Chicago. No way the image used on the T202 was from 1912...

[Chris-Counts]

While I am a big fan of the uniform data base, I have found some inconsistencies, so I wouldn't take it as the definitive word. I would think 1st generation photos that are dated would be the best bet for determining the year. At some point, a print of the image will turn up ...

Originally Posted by botn

If Tim is correct, that the Naps uniforms did not have the black collar in 1911 and color was not added to the T202 photo, then the player sliding could not be Shoeless. He played the last 20 games of the 1910 season with Cleveland and only 2 of those games were against the White Sox and the games were in Chicago. No way the image used on the T202 was from 1912...

[e107collector]

If you look at the T202's "Good Play at Third" & "Baker gets his Man," there is a Cleveland Player shown in the center panel of each.

Does anyone know whick Cleveland player is shown. Maybe it's the same one in question?

I posted links below.

Thanks,
Tony

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=13476

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=13460

[SethY]

I think the "Baker gets his man" card has the best chance of those two in being Jackson in the picture.

[botn]

I am going to see if I can do a little research on the box scores which include a play by play for the games played in Cleveland against Chicago in 1911. Caught stealing is a stat which was tracked. There were 10 Cleveland home games against Chicago in 1911.

The Cleveland player in the Baker Gets His Man does look similar to the player in the Lord Catches His Man.

[SethY]

When would Cleveland be playing Philadelpia?

[botn]

This is from an image on the Blackbetsy site...Taken at the Addie Joss Benefit Game on July 24, 1911 and Shoeless has the inner black collar.

[botn]

Originally Posted by SethY

When would Cleveland be playing Philadelpia?

Cleveland hosted Philadelphia A's 11 times in 1911.

[sreader3]

In the photo posted in the preceding post Jackson's right sock is WHITE up to about mid-shin, whereas the right sock of the Cleveland player on his left is DARK all the way to the pantline. The same appears true in the T202 of interest--the sliding Cleveland player's right sock is WHITE up to about mid-shin. Or am I missing something?

[sreader3]

Or perhaps the white right "sock" could be some kind of wrap Jackson wore in 1911 for a right ankle sprain? Any history on this?

[botn]

Unable to link the panoramic photo but if you go to http://www.blackbetsy.com/joepics2.htm and move a quarter of the way down on the page to Panorama Photo From Addie Joss Day you can see the entire photo. Interesting to note that only one other player in that image has a white sock on the right foot and that player appears to be identified as Bill Lindsay and he was only on base 17 times in 1911. Odds are the only time he touched 3rd base were for the 15 games he played that position. Not sure what the significance is of the single white sock.

On the T202 Baker Gets His Man the lower part of the right leg is obscured.

[sreader3]

Here's another 1911 picture of Joe, Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker from the Addie Joss Benefit game (Cobb lost his Tiger uni and is wearing Cleveland instead). Note that Jackson's right "sock" is white to about mid-shin.

I found another 1911 photo of Jackson scoring at League Park. Once again, the white right "sock" to mid-shin appears.

I'm thinking the T202 is Jackson.

[botn]

Does anyone have access to an archive for box scores from 1911 from the Cleveland Plain Dealer? I checked the online archives for the New York Times and while they have box scores they do not address the caught stealing stat. Would the Sporting News have anything? Here is an example from the NYT online archive from the game between Naps and White Sox on May 5th. http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...639C946096D6CF

Cleveland hosted Chicago on the following dates in 1911:

5/3-5/6
6/28-7/1
9/4 for a doubleheader

[barrysloate]

Greg- did you check Retrosheet, which is linked to this site? I'll take a look now.

Just checked- no box scores for 1911. Some years just have line scores.

[botn]

Hi Barry.

I did check the site and exchanged emails with David who runs the site. They do not have 1911 up yet. He suggested the New York Times. Someone has the play by play for these games or at the minimum a more detailed box score.

[sportscardtheory]

Wow. Those photos with him wearing that white half-sock are pretty convincing. What would the odds be that another player was wearing the same white half-sock on his right leg.

[Tcards-Please]

Greg,

How do we know that he was really "caught stealing" and not just thrown out on a regularly played ball?

r/
Frank

[packs]

I looked at the Cleveland T200 and Jackson has his stirrups all the way down on both legs. If Jackson was injured and wearing the half stirrup for a limited time, it would be very lucky to have caught him in action with his injury. The Joss game was towards the end of July, when were the photos for the T5 set taken? Were they taken before the 1911 season, after, during? He's wearing his stirrups down in that photo.

I think the big question is, are there any players featured on the centerfolds of the T202 set that don't also appear in the set as a tab? I know some images are identified and some aren't, but are there any images that aren't identified on the card, but can be identified unconditionally, and the player doesn't appear in the set itself? For example, in the Cobb stealing photo he is sliding into Jimmy Austin, who also is featured in the set as a tab.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

Wow. Those photos with him wearing that white half-sock are pretty convincing. What would the odds be that another player was wearing the same white half-sock on his right leg.

There is another Cleveland player in the Joss photo wearing the same half white on the right leg, another just on the left, and one on both legs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Probably an ankle wrap. There are lots of them in the Addie Joss photo.

[tbob]

The Cleveland player two to the right of Lajoie also has a right ankle wrap.

[botn]

Originally Posted by T's please

Greg,

How do we know that he was really "caught stealing" and not just thrown out on a regularly played ball?

r/
Frank

Frank,

You are correct. The back of the card only states "The runner was out at third and he might well be; for the bag was being held down by the able Harry D. Lord of the Chicago White Sox." Finding a play by play which covers the game in such detail that it recorded ordinary put outs is going to be a long shot. I thought if a play by play could be found which listed the caught stealing stat it might be more conclusive one way or another.

Greg

[Exhibitman]

Find games Lord and JJ both played in during 1910-1911

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Looking at the Cleveland Home uniforms you will see that in 1910 and 1912 the collars were dark. In 1911 they were white.

If color wasn't added to the photo on the card the picture is from 1910 or 1912. The photo posted by other members of Jackson sliding into third could be 1911 but hard to say since the collar is turned up.

Has anyone missed the fact that the blurred leg has a white wrap on it also. You can see where the white wrap and the black sock start.

I circled the area for anyone to look at the specific spot I was mentioning

[e107collector]

The image is kind of tough to make out. It might be a pile of dirt being kicked up from him sliding?

Is there anyway to zoom in on that spot?

you can make out the shoe and the start of the black sock. its awfully light there to be a black sock behind what little dirt is up in the air. I almost wonder if this was a posed shot cinsidering the small amount of dirt being kicked up in colation with a full out slide. Also he does not look do determined to take that bag like someone stealing base or going for extra bags.

[benjulmag]

Second best post on this thread (after Brett) is bmarlowe1. Without more, we'll never know.

That said, I strongly suspect the market value of this card has increased materially and that many/most future descriptions will make reference to Joe Jackson being depicted in the middle panel. In this hobby, fact often plays a very small role.

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Second best post on this thread (after Brett) is bmarlowe1. Without more, we'll never know.

That said, I strongly suspect the market value of this card has increased materially and that many/most future descriptions will make reference to Joe Jackson being depicted in the middle panel. In this hobby, fact often plays a very small role.

Sad but true

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Second best post on this thread (after Brett) is bmarlowe1. Without more, we'll never know.

I agree whole heartedly with this statement but love threads like this. So much can be learned from the collective ideas of the group. Even when a thought or idea is proven wrong it's a learning experience.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Second best post on this thread (after Brett) is bmarlowe1. Without more, we'll never know.

That said, I strongly suspect the market value of this card has increased materially and that many/most future descriptions will make reference to Joe Jackson being depicted in the middle panel. In this hobby, fact often plays a very small role.

Was thinking the same thing. Maybe we can make an another possible addition to the "hobby myth" thread as well.

[Easy506]

I think "Baker Gets His Man" looks more like Joe than the Lord card. The sliding players nose on the Lord card looks wider than Joe's long nose.

[slidekellyslide]

This has been a fascinating thread. The question may never be answered, but the fact that it has never even been brought up on this board in the past is simply amazing to me. It was also fascinating to see this thread spark a bit of a a buying frenzy.

[Vol]

Great thread.
I say it is Joe.

Now, off to ebay!

[canjond]

You know - there is another card in the T02 set that looks identical to Joe... White sock on ONLY the right leg, sliding into a bag. Actually, of note, there are MANY cards in the T202 set that feature a Cleveland player sliding into a bag.

Eberfield/Milan looks like Joe, so do others...

[Abravefan11]

Has a photo been found that is the same image as one used in the center panel of a T202?

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by canjond

You know - there is another card in the T02 set that looks identical to Joe... White sock on ONLY the right leg, sliding into a bag. Actually, of note, there are MANY cards in the T202 set that feature a Cleveland player sliding into a bag.

Eberfield/Milan looks like Joe, so do others...

Careful Jon, you're going to cause another buying frenzy.

[Matt]

And I'm thinking of the eBay sellers that have been sitting on their T202s asking 2x what the last one sold for, as they do all their cards, and they just made some sales. So glad we could re-enforce their business practices.

[bmarlowe1]

The 3rd best post was by Benjulmag.

Well - since at least a few people here liked my post - let me hijack this thread for a moment and plug the Pictorial History Committee photo analysis newsletter that I write for SABR. It's called "Mystery Photo" for internal historical reasons - but that name really doesn't fit. It's all about rational photo analysis

They are all available for download, starting with the April 2008 issue, for exactly $0 each (I guess it would be a better deal if I paid people to download it).

The first few issues were weak - but I think it's gotten better over time (at least longer and more controversial). The May 2009 issue was devoted to photo auctions. So if you have nothing better to do, here they are from newest to oldest:

http://www.sabr.org/cmsFiles/Files/Mysteryphoto5-10.pdf

http://www.sabr.org/cmsFiles/Files/Mysteryphoto1-10.pdf

http://www.sabr.org/cmsFiles/Files/Mysteryphoto9-09.pdf

http://www.sabr.org/cmsFiles/Files/Mysteryphoto5-09.pdf

http://www.sabr.org/cmsFiles/Files/mysteryphoto2-09.pdf

http://www.sabr.org/cmsFiles/Files/Mysteryphoto9-08.pdf

http://www.sabr.org/cmsFiles/Files/M...ublication.pdf

http://www.sabr.org/cmsFiles/Files/F...otoColumn1.pdf

[e107collector]

The center panel for the Too Late for Devlin T202's, show a Cleveland Player sliding in that resembles Joe Jackson.http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2010/389.html

[tbob]

Next thing you know someone will say the guy on the Grassy Knoll in Dallas looks a lot like Shoeless Joe.

[Kawika]

Mark: I just joined SABR a few months ago and hardly a day goes by that my email inbox doesn't have something from one of their committees. I just received your latest newsletter regarding the Richmond-Fatima Giants connection. It neatly summarized your discovery which was discussed on this board a few months back and made for a very interesting read. Rest assured that at least one of our ranks, namely me, will be part of your loyal following.

On another note, where's Ryan Christoff already in this thread? He is the go-to guy for JoJax spotting, is he not?

[Matt]

Mark - just finished an issue - great stuff.
thanks!