Searching for a "Pirate" Cobb....show us these extremely rare "T215" cards ?

[tedzan]

These Pirate cards were printed concurrently with the Red Cross (T215-1) cards, circa 1910-1912.
Both sets appear to have in common identical fronts; however, no Cobb has been found with the
Pirate back. At least one Cobb (bat off shoulder) has been confirmed with a Red Cross back.


.






Hey Net54er's, those of you fortunate to have a Pirate card (or two), why not show them to us ?


Thanx Jon Canfield, for my pretty looking Pirate cigarette pack. Now, I need a T215 Pirate card to
complement it.


TED Z

[ethicsprof]

Ted,
great looking pack!!!
i,too, have a pirates pack from the great and gracious Jon Canfield but have
been searching months for a reasonably priced card to go with it.
i'm thinking we may have to go with a non-baseball pirate and just show the back!!
best,
barry

[ullmandds]

I have bunches of the oriental character pirate cards...but no baseball. I almost bought one from Davis Festburg at the 95 nat'l...but I mistook his 1500 pricetag for $150. When I realized it was 1500...I walked away!!!!

[sb1]

wish I knew how to make them bigger.

http://members.auctionhawk.com/sb1/2936144-scan0002.jpg


http://members.auctionhawk.com/sb1/2936145-scan0003.jpg

[Orioles1954]

I've been meaning to post a thread about this. What is the origins of the Pirate set being ascribed as T215....which is a Louisiana issue? No copy of the ACC has ever shown T215 as including the Pirate subset. Shouldn't these cards be ascribed as T-UNC? It is irrelevent to me that these were printed at the same time period, for a completely different market.

[tedzan]

Fine, show us your oriental character pirate cards......as, I don't think we are going to see any great number of BB cards.


TED Z

[tedzan]

1st......I have been skeptical of the claim that the T215 cards are a Louisiana issue. The Red Cross
backs have a New Jersey Factory on them.

2nd......I somewhat agree with you, the Pirate issue should have it's own classification (T-xyz). As,
it is white-bordered set that was issued abroad.


TED Z

[White Borders]

Not mine (but I wish it was!) and I don't remember where I got the scan.

[rman444]

[rman444]

[rman444]

[calvindog]

Wow, where are those pictures from?

[canjond]

[HercDriver]

Ted --

Here's a few non-baseball since you asked...kind of cool since they have a bit different back. If anybody wants to trade a beater for a few, let me know...

Take Care,
Geno

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by tedzan

1st......I have been skeptical of the claim that the T215 cards are a Louisiana issue. The Red Cross
backs have a New Jersey Factory on them.

2nd......I somewhat agree with you, the Pirate issue should have it's own classification (T-xyz). As,
it is white-bordered set that was issued abroad.


TED Z

Points are well taken. Although printed from a New Jersey factory, does that preclude them from being shipped to Louisiana? Where did the legend of Red Cross originating in Louisiana come from? Additionally, who decided in the hobby to give this the T215 designation and why was it accepted?

[rman444]

Jon - I think I've told you before - that is the sweetest pack that I have ever seen!

[ullmandds]

Those birdy pirate backs are coooll!!! Here are some of my oriental characters...I've always liked these!

[canjond]

Originally Posted by rman444

Jon - I think I've told you before - that is the sweetest pack that I have ever seen!

It is a very neat pack and not seen often at all. I know of 2 others although I'm sure there are some more around I'm not aware of.

[cfc1909]

I have a few of the oriental cards as well-the baseball cards that I have seen are the Doolan-last I seen it was in a Verkman auction-I have also seen a Tinker and a Wagner bat on right at the last Philly show and I think it will be in a upcomming Goodwin. I have also seen the Pelty Scott posted but that is all I can remember besides the set in Legendary. I am sure there are a few in some old collections-it would be nice to see some more.

[rman444]

Jeff - can you guess which one has Ty Cobb on the front?

[tedzan]

The T215 cards were printed in New York City (as most of that era's T-cards), then shipped to Jersey City, NJ to
the Lorillard plant (Factory #10) to be inserted into the Red Cross tobacco products.

The "Louisiana connection" is based on a large find of these cards many years back from the Louisiana area. I
would conclude that someone from the NY-NJ area moved to Louisiana a long time ago and brought with them
a large collection of Red Cross cards.


Regarding your 2nd question......
" Additionally, who decided in the hobby to give this the T215 designation and why was it accepted? "

Of course Burdick did....and, I would assume he classified the Pirate cards as T215 since these cards have identical
fronts as the T215-1 issue.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Thanks Craig, Geno, Jon, Peter, Richard and sb1.....for sharing your Pirate cards and related items.

Hey guys, let's see some more Pirate "goodies" here.


TED Z

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The T215 cards were printed in New York City (as most of that era's T-cards), then shipped to Jersey City, NJ to
the Lorillard plant (Factory #10) to be inserted into the Red Cross tobacco products.

The "Louisiana connection" is based on a large find of these cards many years back from the Louisiana area. I
would conclude that someone from the NY-NJ area moved to Louisiana a long time ago and brought with them
a large collection of Red Cross cards.


Regarding your 2nd question......
" Additionally, who decided in the hobby to give this the T215 designation and why was it accepted? "

Of course Burdick did....and, I would assume he classified the Pirate cards as T215 since these cards have identical
fronts as the T215-1 issue.


TED Z

That's not in my copy of the ACC under T215!

[ullmandds]

does anyone know if all of the baseball t215 pirates are found with the same closed cigarette box back?

[tedzan]

What is not in the ACC regarding T215 cards ?

I'm not citing anything from the ACC....what I stated is what I know.


TED Z

[cfc1909]

my Pirate cards-some of the backs are different -look close

Piratebacks.jpg

Piratefronts.jpg

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by tedzan

What is not in the ACC regarding T215 cards ?

I'm not citing anything from the ACC....what I stated is what I know.


TED Z

Ted,

I'm not trying to be hard to get along with or anything, just want to satisfy something I've been wondering for awhile. If not in the ACC, then where did Burdick call "Pirates" as part of the T215 designation? Source? Anything?

[tedzan]

I'm not either....I fully agree with your thoughts regarding these Pirates cards. They should have their
own numerical classification.

Let's see what other opinions are ?


TED Z

[White Borders]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I'm not either....I fully agree with your thoughts regarding these Pirates cards. They should have their
own numerical classification.

Let's see what other opinions are ?


TED Z

I think they should be included in T206

(Sorry, I just couldn't resist saying that after all the T213-1 discussions!)

[White Borders]

Just remembered where I got the scan of the Doolan - 2008 REA. Here's the link: http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2008/441.html

[tedzan]

Craig W

I would assume that the Pirate 96-card set that sold a few years ago included a Cobb. It sounds like a complete set.
Since this Pirate issue is identical to the T215-1 issue; therefore, the Cobb should be the Bat off Shoulder version.



TED Z

[ullmandds]

It was a near set...and did NOT include a Cobb.

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...px?lotid=75301

[cfc1909]

are ther any other sets that have a 97 card checklist?

[White Borders]

Originally Posted by cfc1909

are ther any other sets that have a 97 card checklist?

Interesting thought Jim.

97 is a prime number (can't be divided by anything and still get a whole number). So, (unless cards were printed one at a time, which is quite unlikely) if the cards were printed on sheets, a sheet would have to have all the same front; OR there would have to be double prints; OR there would have to be some non-baseball fronts on the baseball sheets.

[teetwoohsix]

Is the reason for thinking there is a Cobb with a Pirate back based on the crossing of the Type 1's ? Just wondering,because if that were the case, what about :

1.) Crandall,New York Nat'l -Type 1,but no Pirate

2.)Ball,Cleveland -Type 1,but no Pirate

3.)Conroy,Washington -Type 1,but no Pirate

4.)Hartsel,Toledo - Type 1,but no Pirate

5.)Latham, N.Y. Nat'l -Type 1,but no Pirate

Anyhow, there are more-just using these as an example.And there seem to be more Pirate backed cards that don't have a Type 1 example,than the other way around.

So,is the theory that there is a Cobb with a Pirate back somewhere out there because there is a Cobb Type 1 ?

Sincerely,Clayton

[birdman42]

Originally Posted by White Borders

97 is a prime number (can't be divided by anything and still get a whole number). So, (unless cards were printed one at a time, which is quite unlikely) if the cards were printed on sheets, a sheet would have to have all the same front; OR there would have to be double prints; OR there would have to be some non-baseball fronts on the baseball sheets.

Craig, those were my thoughts after reading the Legendary description. They came up with their 96/97 assessment by adding Danny Murphy to the 96 they offered. One other possibility is, of course, that there are three players yet to be discovered--including, perhaps, Cobb. After all, this find added five to the checklist.

Bill

[tedzan]

Yes, there are 96 different subjects....and, one variation....Bobby Byrne (St. Louis) and 2nd card of Byrne
identifying him with Pittsburg (traded August 1909).

In my opinion....the change in teams for Byrne narrows down this set to a 1910 issue ?

If it was a 1912 issue, as catalogued, there would not have been any reason to issue two cards of Byrne.


Your thoughts, gentleman ? ?


TED Z

[tedzan]

Also, the Pirate set has both versions of Harry McIntyre....Brooklyn....and Brooklyn & Chicago cards. He was traded
on April 13, 1910, which further suggests that the Pirate cards were printed and issued sometime in 1910.

Furthermore, throughout the set, there are other T206 fronts from the 350-only series and from the 350/460 series,
implying that there might have been two printings. And therefore, two issues of these Pirate cards.


TED Z

[teetwoohsix]

I guess my question wasn't a valid one ?

Clayton

[cfc1909]

Ted

that makes sense-96 subjects and a variation of one of the subjects makes a 97 card checklist.

Clayton-the reason for thinking there is a Cobb- is top tier HOFer and there is a t215 Red Cross so why not a t215 Pirate.

[tedzan]

Clayton


Ball, Crandall and Hartsel are confirmed cards in this Pirate set.

Conroy & Latham have not yet to be confirmed in the Pirate set....and, may not exist if the Pirate issue
is indeed a 96-card set.

The where-abouts of Mr. Cobb still remains a mystery ?



TED Z

[tedzan]

Jim

Regarding your...."that makes sense-96 subjects and a variation of one of the subjects makes a 97 card checklist."

That set in Legendary Auctions actually has 95 different subjects. The Bobby Byrne (Pittsburg) variation is the 96th
card in their listing.
Therefore, if we assume that the Pirate set consists of 96 different cards, then there remains a vacancy for a Cobb.


TED Z

[teetwoohsix]

Thanks JimR and TedZ. I'm not saying there isn't a Cobb/Pirate, just was thinking if there was a Cobb/Pirate T215, what about the other Type 1's that aren't confirmed with the Pirate back-would we also assume they are out there also? That's all.

I may be going off of an old out dated checklist (Mr.Lipset's Vol.3,original print),,,so I see in here that:

There is a Ball,Boston Amer. Pirate,,,,,,,,,,and a Ball,Cleveland Type 1

A Crandall,N.Y. Nat'l Pirate,,,,,,,,,,and a Crandall,New York Nat'l Type 1

And a Hartsel,Phila.Amer. Pirate,,,,,,,,,,and a Hartsel,Toledo Type 1

Anyhow,I don't want to come across as argumentative or anything,I'm just trying to understand,and I do appreciate the response and help.
It would be awesome to find such a card,the Cobb/Pirate T215.
I just wondered if that would mean the other unconfirmed Pirates should have a Type1 partner also,,and vice versa.

Sincerely,Clayton

[White Borders]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Also, the Pirate set has both versions of Harry McIntyre....Brooklyn....and Brooklyn & Chicago cards. He was traded
on April 13, 1910, which further suggests that the Pirate cards were printed and issued sometime in 1910.

TED Z

Ted's comment reminded me of a T215-1 Red Cross McIntyre I recently picked up. Note that the image is the same as the T206 McIntyre Brooklyn & Chicago, but the caption is McIntyre, Chicago Nat'l.

I'd be interested to know:

a) If there is also a T215-1 Red Cross with the Brooklyn & Chicago caption (which would indicate a caption change during the print run OR two separate print runs).

b) If the Pirate back version has Brooklyn & Chicago in the caption, or just Chicago.

[teetwoohsix]

Well Craig,I'm glad you brought this up.I don't have the answer,but looking at the checklist I'm using (as stated above in my last post),it says this:

McIntyre, Chicago Amer.,,,,Pirate back T215

McIntyre, Bkln. and Chicago Nat'l ,,,,Pirate back T215

McIntyre,Chicago Nat'l ,,,,,Type 1 T215

Is there a T215 McIntyre with just a Brooklyn only designation?

Sincerely,Clayton

[White Borders]

Hey Clayton,

I suppose I should have checked my Lipset Vol 3 first before posting. Looking at it now, it agrees with what you posted in regard to McIntyre. But since the copyright date is 1986, there may have been new finds since.

Best Regards,
Craig

[tedzan]

Too much guesswork going on here. Here's the checklist of the Pirate set of 96 cards (plus the Byrne variation).
To date, no Cobb (Red portrait....or, Bat off shoulder version) has been confirmed.

My theory is that there was at least two press runs. One in 1910 and the 2nd in 1911. Check-out the following
trades........

Buck Herzog.......from Boston NL to New York NL on July 22, 1911
Miller Huggins.....from Cinci to St Louis on Feb 3, 1910
Matty McIntyre....from Detroit to Chicago AL on Jan 12, 1911
Rebel Oakes.......from Cinci to St Louis on Feb 3, 1910
Frank Smith........from Boston AL to Cinci on May 11, 1911


Ames (hands above head)
Baker
Ball
Bender
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Byrne (St Louis)
Byrne (Pittsburg)
Camnitz
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase
Collins (A's)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)
Cree
Devore
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (fielding)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Doyle (portrait)
Doyle (bat)
Dubuc
Elberfeld (Wash.-fielding)
Evans
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Ford
Fromme
Griffith (bat)
Groom
Herzog (New York, Nat'l)
Hartzell
Hoblitzell
Hofman
Howard
Huggins (portrait, St Louis Nat'l)
Huggins (hands/mouth)
Hummell
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (both hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Kelley
Konetchy (glove low)
Krause
Lajoie (bat)
Lake
Leifield (bat)
Lord
Magee (bat)
Marquard (portrait)
Marquard (pitching)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McGinnity
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove)
Harry McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago Nat'l)
Matty McIntyre (Detroit)
Matty McIntyre (Chicago, Amer.)
McLean
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers
Miller
Mitchell (Cinci)
Mowery
Mullin (bat)
Murray
Murphy (bat)........................UNCERTAIN
Oakes (St Louis, Nat'l)
Oldring (bat)
O'Leary (hands/knees)
Paskert
Pelty (vertical)
Purtell
Quinn
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (bat)
Schaefer
Schulte (back view)
Frank Smith (Cinci)
Sheckard (glove)
Speaker
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street
Summers
Sweeney (New York)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Thomas
Tinker (bat)
Wagner (bat on right)
Warhop
Wheat
Willetts
Wilson
Wiltse (portrait)
Wiltse (throwing)


Any inputs are appreciated ?


TED Z

[teetwoohsix]

Hi TedZ,

Thanks for the updated Pirate checklist,I do appreciate the time and effort you put into that-thank you.

Of course,as usual,I'm a little confused about something.In post #38,you said there is a McIntyre Brooklyn and a McIntyre Brooklyn & Chicago.Did you mean to say Chicago and Brooklyn & Chicago instead? Or is there a McIntyre Brooklyn?

Also,confusing me even more,in the checklist you just produced,you say there is a McIntyre Detroit? Maybe you are just messing with me ,,,,,but if not-please clarify?

Thanks,
Clayton

[tedzan]

Clayton

Would I be "messing with you" ? .....Not in at all


The Detroit listing is of Matty McIntyre.

In my prior post I mis-stated McIntyre (Brooklyn)....it should have been Matty McIntyre (Chicago Amer.)


I will edit my checklist to add their first names.


Regards,

TED Z

[teetwoohsix]

Thanks TedZ.I'm having great fun with this,,and I know I can be a pain in the butt-thank you for your patience.

So,I've now added Matty McIntyre,Detroit to the updated list,as well as:

M.Brown,Chicago,,,,,and

Byrne,St.Louis

Thanks again!!

Sincerely,Clayton