Rebacked T206's....heck NO....perhaps, they are Re-Fronted DRUM, HINDU cards ?

[onlychild]

There is no way,unless you are a pro like Kevin,that you could "build" an example that could fool everyone,IMO.

HA! I'm the village idiot, so I imagine there are plenty more out there that can do this. I just happened to stumble upon the technique by accident while doing some experiments that many would consider unthinkable.

I've always been under the impression that cards are just a single piece of cardboard with ink...and if it was done once it could be done again.

I was dumbfounded at an earlier post where Kevin said he offered to show PSA graders a few "tips",free of charge,and was declined!!

Yep, it was free and I only live about 30 miles away. I wasn't planning on showing them tips, I was going to give them step by step instructions along with the formulas and how to's. Then they would know exactly what to look for, since it's not always black and white. Was also going show them security concerns with their flips, which as predicted, is now a big problem.

[T206DK]

We'll see how my attempts turn out. I've already done the color removal experiments that Kevin has tried on his website and they have worked to varying degrees. I did that about 4 -5 years ago just out of curiousity. I don't consider myself a card doctor at all, but I do have some experience in restoring historical documents and things of that nature. I have just transferred the knowledge to baseball cards.
the cards I use would not be considered keepers by most, and I've never tried to sneak anything by a grading company or sell to anyone.

[tedzan]

Dave, regarding your......
"I think these types of alterations can be done by anyone with the time and materials. I am going to try to do
my own re-fronting and see how it turns out."

Here's my suggestion to you....re-front a UZIT back with a Red Cobb....it's an impossible F/B combo, but does
that really matter anymore ?


Anyhow, here's my example......





..Hey guys, we need a laugh and I thought this card might evoke it....after all, Cobb is quoted as saying....

"Baseball was like War"..


TED Z

[T206Collector]

...anyone has to worry about are the ones that can be detected.

While even the best forgeries have the propensity to harm the hobby in a variety of ways, threads like this, which purport to (and do) educate, have their own damaging effect on the hobby in that they have the ability to disgust collectors so much that they might choose a different hobby.

What's worse -- a truly undetectable forgery; or a thread about how the cards we currently own might not be what we think they are?

Just something worth thinking about. If you could push a button and 50% of the cards in your collection would suddenly be worthless while the other 50% of the cards would be 100% guaranteed unaltered, would you push it?

[T206Collector]

Why is this Plank...

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=14790

...already bid up higher than this SGC 30?

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=13374

To me, the first one is a worthless fake, too. But evidently there is a market for this stuff -- even when it is disclosed.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Why is this Plank...

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=14790

...already bid up higher than this SGC 30?

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=13374

To me, the first one is a worthless fake, too. But evidently there is a market for this stuff -- even when it is disclosed.

I agree completely. The second one is a great 30; I mean, could you find a better Plank image on a 2?

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Why is this Plank...

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=14790

...already bid up higher than this SGC 30?

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=13374

To me, the first one is a worthless fake, too. But evidently there is a market for this stuff -- even when it is disclosed.

As the high bidder on the first Plank I respect your thoughts...but disagree to a point.

For me I would rather have touched up 150 subjects Plank over a beater or out of focus 2 350 Plank.

There's also big diff to me as collector from a professionally restored original card to a creation of a card that never was (Back/Combo skinned etc). That card had to be a Plank to begin with not a Cobb and another common with a back joined together as the thread is discussing or suggesting. Also as long as it's disclosed I see no problem and the card restored will always sell far below market value not like an undisclosed creation card or trimmed card.

To me it's like classic cars a 100% original rust bucket or a nice looking rebuilt car that's 70% original.

Fact of the matter the market is there for cards like this Plank for simple economics...I want a nice looking 150 Plank and short of trimmed examples and rebuilt ones there has been none for sale in a long time. And if I want an VGEX+ looking Plank 150 this is my option as there has not been one for sale or if was for sale it was out of my price range.

But there's also a flip side why you and others may see no point in the above Plank. There may be other collectors like myself who have no desire to own rougher examples like you currently own Paul.

http://mysite.verizon.net/imagelib/s...et=tlx_picyk90

No judgment to each his own...that's the great thing about all collecting one person will see no point and another finds a lifetime of enjoyment.

As for fakes been here and will continue to be here. Nothing anyone can do about it so get used to it sorry folks. A few folks hacking cards in their spare time to unlock the mystery won't change anything either. The Plank I'm bidding on is a prime example there have been two Planks re-built in the past few years that were sold as such and looked great...ever wonder how many cards are rebuilt that aren't disclosed.

The people who do these restorations are professionals. Not folks who dabble out of their garages or houses. If a person has the time, money and the drive fakes will flow you can’t stop it. The only way we will ever find out is after the fact; after some poor person has been taken...then we will know.

Don't believe me look at the mess Chan created with a stamp from Kinkos and website...LOL

A big step in fixing this hobby is holding folks accountable and having the restraint to say no to the folks who are caught or implicated in bad stuff. Not just outing card doctor techniques and or posting conspiracy theories on a chat board.

Perfect example Mastro/Allen people still bidding in Legendary. Pat Chan people still using the T206musuem...for every thread that airs dirty laundry on here or in print. Collectors still rush to the mailbox and place bids with the same folks we complain about.

We as collectors don't do enough holding folks responsible.

Just saying no I won’t bid in that person’s auction. Or I won’t take this persons word he was caught in a mess and has no real credibility why should I trust him. That would go a lot further than anything Kevin can do for us and we all have the power to do so..but most of us don't I'm even guilty myself to a degree.

That’s why we as collectors will always be taken advantage of because we don’t do the above.

Guys faking cards is just a portion of the bigger problem IMO.

Cheers,

John

[T206Collector]

Wonka,

I know you've been in the market for a Plank for awhile and I do hope you win this one, if that is what you want. As you know, we had this debate back in April '07 when the one you are high bidder on sold for about the same as (perhaps somewhat less than) the Lionel Carter beater in the same auction. Wasn't the Plank you're bidding on sold in an interim aucton recently?

I don't like restored cards, never have. To each his own. But I think it is semantics to argue a difference between rebuilding cards and rebacking/refronting them.

Good luck! :P

[wonkaticket]

Paul correct the rebulit one from prior was in a PSA holder and recently sold in Huggins in an SGC holder. These 150 Planks "Restored" always seem to bring around the same cash you are correct...15-20k.

In the long run I'm with you take a sweet VG any day but 150 VG's just don;t pop up and for my 15-20k now I'd prefer the better looking FrankenPlank..LOL

Actually this card has had less work to it than the prior for what that's worth..

[T206DK]

I think it's natural to want to figure something out after you've seen or heard of another person trying it. Not everyone does it, but some do. I think the thing that is disturbing to me as a collector is the fact that 3rd party graders may have graded a lot of altered cards. Now those 3rd party graded cards are selling for well more than their ungraded counterparts are.
The newbies that may read threads like this may be turned off, but I bet it's the flipper/investor/speculators that are really troubled when they see pics like Kevin's and read info about how these alterations are done. If a few of them are turned off of cards and go delve into coins or something else I could care less. I think the investor /speculators have ruined some of the fun of collecting. Especially for guys who can't shell out thousands of dollars every week for cards.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by T206DK

I bet it's the flipper/investor/speculators that are really troubled when they see pics like Kevin's and read info about how these alterations are done. If a few of them are turned off of cards and go delve into coins or something else I could care less.

I hadn't thought of it that way! And if we can turn off enough of these folks, we might get a more reasonably priced hobby.

[iggyman]

[quote=t206collector;803201
while even the best forgeries have the propensity to harm the hobby in a variety of ways, threads like this, which purport to (and do) educate, have their own damaging effect on the hobby in that they have the ability to disgust collectors so much that they might choose a different hobby.

What's worse -- a truly undetectable forgery; or a thread about how the cards we currently own might not be what we think they are?[/quote]


monkees2.jpg

[T206Collector]

I'm not preaching ignorance. I just think it is ironic that a thread like this can scare collectors as much as a forgery itself.

Hopefully through better education we can eradicate some of these forgeries. The unfortunate truth is that better education will also better educate criminals and scare collectors. And, no matter what we do, there will always be some alterations that will remain undetectable forever.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

And, no matter what we do, there will always be some alterations that will remain undetectable forever.

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it...

[T206DK]

no sense in looking at your collection with rose colored glasses now. I think Kevin and some others have proven to me that alterations can be made good enough to fool the best graders out there. If you've amassed a lot of graded cards and now are wondering what to think, I don't have an answer for you other than welcome to reality. The hobby's holy grail card has been suspect for years ...some people believe it's unaltered , some don't. I heard the story long before the book came out , and made a decision to not rely on 3rd party graders for peace of mind or to somehow increase the value of a raw card I bought. I trust my own judgement and knowledge when it comes to spending $5 or $5,000 on a card. Some dealers back in the 80's and 90's used to think my brother and I were just cute kids walking around shows with a 10X loop looking at cards. It helped me become better at spotting fishy looking cards and at judging the conditions of cards.
I don't think that card altering is going to cease any time soon either. People can make a good living doing it and to be honest some guys may try to pass altered cards off to grading companies for the thrill of it and for the $$. Once they do it one time it is a green light to continue down that road. I know noone wants to think of it, but I'm sure out there somewhere is a guy who "works" on cards every day for several hours a day with the intention of defraudind someone.

[FUBAR]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it...

"If a man talks and a woman isn't around to hear it, is he still wrong???"

If its any consolation, id rather have a nice looking rebuilt then a old beater, in cards, cars, and ladies!

[T206DK]

this is an interesting read

http://www.sportscollectorsdigest.co...le/nerattowle/

[onlychild]

We'll see how my attempts turn out. I've already done the color removal experiments that Kevin has tried on his website and they have worked to varying degrees. I did that about 4 -5 years ago just out of curiousity. I don't consider myself a card doctor at all, but I do have some experience in restoring historical documents and things of that nature. I have just transferred the knowledge to baseball cards.

Awesome, the more we learn the better.

As for Ted's idea...yikes that would expensive to attempt . How about a common with an upside down back? It's all relevant right?

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by onlychild

HA! I'm the village idiot, so I imagine there are plenty more out there that can do this. I just happened to stumble upon the technique by accident while doing some experiments that many would consider unthinkable.

I've always been under the impression that cards are just a single piece of cardboard with ink...and if it was done once it could be done again.



Yep, it was free and I only live about 30 miles away. I wasn't planning on showing them tips, I was going to give them step by step instructions along with the formulas and how to's. Then they would know exactly what to look for, since it's not always black and white. Was also going show them security concerns with their flips, which as predicted, is now a big problem.

cant PSA/SGC just go to your website?

just wondering, i looked at you site, amazing! if i was a deceitful, lying thief, i would LOVE YOUR SITE for the Info it gave me to be bad!

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

If i was a deceitful, lying thief, i would LOVE YOUR SITE for the Info it gave me to be bad!

That's the flip side to education -- you educate the good guys and they learn how to avoid the bad guys; but then the bad guys also learn how to outsmart the good guys.

[FUBAR]

Well if you get good enough at being bad, you can at least get a job at Coach's Corner!

[onlychild]

cant PSA/SGC just go to your website?

just wondering, i looked at you site, amazing! if i was a deceitful, lying thief, i would LOVE YOUR SITE for the Info it gave me to be bad!

SGC and PSA would already know about these types of alterations. Just thought PSA would benefit from knowing how the some of the advanced techniques were done in detail. Both GAI and Beckett adjusted their security measures based on what info they were personally given.

Tough subject to write about. Give too much info and it becomes a learning tool. Not enough and they complain that it not enough, which is typically the case.

For the most part I just try to show the end results and some things to look for. There are far too many steps to complete almost each alteration that it requires more knowledge than what is supplied. For the most part, if you were a deceitful lying thief, there is "probably" not enough there that could turn you into a successful card doctor right away.

Kevin

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by onlychild

SGC and PSA would already know about these types of alterations. Just thought PSA would benefit from knowing how the some of the advanced techniques were done in detail. Both GAI and Beckett adjusted their security measures based on what info they were personally given.

Tough subject to write about. Give too much info and it becomes a learning tool. Not enough and they complain that it not enough, which is typically the case.

For the most part I just try to show the end results and some things to look for. There are far too many steps to complete almost each alteration that it requires more knowledge than what is supplied. For the most part, if you were a deceitful lying thief, there is "probably" not enough there that could turn you into a successful card doctor right away.

Kevin

i understand

[tbob]

I'd rather have a slightly altered or restored card in an authentic holder than a beater in a 10 holder so I agree with Wonka and Jim.
P.S. This week the wife and I have been married 39 years and she has tolerated my card collecting for 25 of them

[barrysloate]

Bob- this Tuesday is my 25th and Judy has tolerated it from day one!