List of known Red HINDU's....can you add any new ones ?

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Chicago206

Well, when an expert collector says no Red Cobbs with Red Hindus were printed....and then I find one that recently sold...whats a "dumb newbie" like me to think?

And the "edge" is due to the lynchmob mentality here. Something that will soften once you guys set down your torches and pitchforks im sure.

Read the thread.

If you had searched "red Cobb red Hindu" in the search function you could have easily found it yourself.

Instead you link to a recent auction, that was thoroughly discussed and attack Ted's credibility.

THAT...
is why we have what you call a "lynchmob mentality" We have already talked about it, but you wave it like it's new.



Don't get me wrong. There's absolutely nothing wrong with asking the question. I've asked Ted and others lots of questions, some of them, very dumb questions. In this case you could have phrased it better. Instead of terms like "blindly agree" and "old timers" you could have tried this:


Hi Ted. I noticed you were pretty certain that there is no Red Cobb w/Red Hindu back. I also noticed that one of them sold in last year's REA. Do you suspect there is something wrong with this front/back combo and therefore, this card? Thanks, in advance for your time.

[Chicago206]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

Read the thread.

If you had searched "red Cobb red Hindu" in the search function you could have easily found it yourself.

Instead you link to a recent auction, that was thoroughly discussed and attack Ted's credibility.

THAT...
is why we have what you call a "lynchmob mentality" We have already talked about it, but you wave it like it's new.

Just read the 4 pages of that thread. There is nothing conclusive about Ted's assertion that the card isnt real. It may be re-backed, it may be legit. What I get from Ted's argument is that because he has never seen, in person, a Cobb with a Hindu back, they must not exist. Im not too sure i'd subscribe to that theory. Someone dropped 38 large on that card. I tend to think that the guy who spends that type of money may know something about what he is buying. Ted offered conjecture, hypothesis, and his opinion. The other guy offered a year's worth of the average person's salary. Furthermore, since that very public sale occured about 3 years ago, dont you think it would be known by now if the card was indeed altered?

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Chicago206

Just read the 4 pages of that thread. There is nothing conclusive about Ted's assertion that the card isnt real. It may be re-backed, it may be legit. What I get from Ted's argument is that because he has never seen, in person, a Cobb with a Hindu back, they must not exist. Im not too sure i'd subscribe to that theory. Someone dropped 38 large on that card. I tend to think that the guy who spends that type of money may know something about what he is buying. Ted offered conjecture, hypothesis, and his opinion. The other guy offered a year's worth of the average person's salary. Furthermore, since that very public sale occured about 3 years ago, dont you think it would be known by now if the card was indeed altered?

That "very public sale" occured on May 03, 2009, not quite a year ago. The thread I linked was from last January, BEFORE the REA catalog came out.

I don't know if Ted's right or not. That's not my point. The important thing is he's put a lot more thought and effort into tracking T206 than you ever will. Show some manners. He offered a lot more than conjecture.

And the first thing I learned in the high end of this hobby is that there is always someone with more money than you could imagine, who are willing to drop $38,000 on a card they think is rare.

It's not always about who has the most money. They are not always the smartest. Money doesn't always trump everything else. Hell, I heard the owner of the Arizona Diamondbacks dropped $2.8 million on a trimmed card.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Chicago206

Just read the 4 pages of that thread.

Did you know you can adjust your settings in the User CP to allow up to 80 posts per page instead of the preset number of 10?

[Chicago206]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

Did you know you can adjust your settings in the User CP to allow up to 80 posts per page instead of the preset number of 10?

I do now....thanks for the tip. 10 replies always seemed a bit short to start a new page!

[ullmandds]

"Let me try to learn something now. If the card has been in existence for at least 11 years (back to Mastro's sale) how in the world has such a high profile card escaped detection as being an altered piece? Is it just that each new owner spends mega bucks for it, then locks it away in denial....afraid to have it examined for genuine authenticity? I cannot understand this. What are your thoughts?"

Hey Chi-Town...are you familiar with the famous gretzky Wagner...psa graded 8? Talk about spending mega bucks...on an altered card! My thoughts are that many people have high grade...potentially altered, holdered cards in their collection. What good would it serve them to have them deemed altered/overgraded...and obviously quite less valuable? Surely a man with such an interest in finance can understand this?

[Chicago206]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

"Let me try to learn something now. If the card has been in existence for at least 11 years (back to Mastro's sale) how in the world has such a high profile card escaped detection as being an altered piece? Is it just that each new owner spends mega bucks for it, then locks it away in denial....afraid to have it examined for genuine authenticity? I cannot understand this. What are your thoughts?"

Hey Chi-Town...are you familiar with the famous gretzky Wagner...psa graded 8? Talk about spending mega bucks...on an altered card! My thoughts are that many people have high grade...potentially altered, holdered cards in their collection. What good would it serve them to have them deemed altered/overgraded...and obviously quite less valuable? Surely a man with such an interest in finance can understand this?

I guess my biggest concern is this...How does Ullmandds, and presumably most of the members here know this information, but the guys who continue to spend mega bucks dont have a clue as to what they are buying??? How is such a "well known secret" kept when the hammer falls at auction?

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Chicago206

I guess my biggest concern is this...How does Ullmandds, and presumably most of the members here know this information, but the guys who continue to spend mega bucks dont have a clue as to what they are buying??? How is such a "well known secret" kept when the hammer falls at auction?

Peter and I both asked about this card. Are you aware of the story behind it? It's going to be displayed in Cooperstown this year. MLB is happy. The HOF is overjoyed. The current owner is pretty proud. (Psst! It's hand cut from a sheet and trimmed. Don't tell!)

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by Chicago206

Just read the 4 pages of that thread. There is nothing conclusive about Ted's assertion that the card isnt real. It may be re-backed, it may be legit. What I get from Ted's argument is that because he has never seen, in person, a Cobb with a Hindu back, they must not exist. Im not too sure i'd subscribe to that theory. Someone dropped 38 large on that card. I tend to think that the guy who spends that type of money may know something about what he is buying. Ted offered conjecture, hypothesis, and his opinion. The other guy offered a year's worth of the average person's salary. Furthermore, since that very public sale occured about 3 years ago, dont you think it would be known by now if the card was indeed altered?

*

I definitely agree with your statement about Ted.
Ted is a nice guy, but he actually feels that if he doesn't see the card, it doesn't exist.
Facts, and anyones word is NOT good enough ... in his mind ... his assumptions, speculations and theories ... rises above all of that.

Maybe it went unoticed by his followers, but it was only two to three years ago that he discovered the Doyle error card.
Prior to that, outside of Larry Fritsch, the collecting world knew about the the Doyle error since 1987 ... Larry knew about it since 1980.

Until someone hit him between the eyes about the Doyle error card ... he was talking it down like he's doing to the Red Hindu Cobb.

If you notice, Ted will make statements about Bowmen cards ... but when it comes to tobacco cards ... they're mostly assumption, speculations and theories ... and when he makes a careless mistake ... he gets nailed ... this time by a newbie .

[Jim VB]

By the way, that thread I linked was BEFORE last year's REA catalog came out, so it was well known in this community before that.

Mastro also sold it 10-11 years ago.

[Chicago206]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

By the way, that thread I linked was BEFORE last year's REA catalog came out, so it was well known in this community before that.

Mastro also sold it 10-11 years ago.

My mistake on the dates of the REA sale. I saw the 2007 copyright at the bottom of the page....it sold at 38k last year. Let me try to learn something now. If the card has been in existence for at least 11 years (back to Mastro's sale) how in the world has such a high profile card escaped detection as being an altered piece? Is it just that each new owner spends mega bucks for it, then locks it away in denial....afraid to have it examined for genuine authenticity? I cannot understand this. What are your thoughts?

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Chicago206

My mistake on the dates of the REA sale. I saw the 2007 copyright at the bottom of the page....it sold at 38k last year. Let me try to learn something now. If the card has been in existence for at least 11 years (back to Mastro's sale) how in the world has such a high profile card escaped detection as being an altered piece? Is it just that each new owner spends mega bucks for it, then locks it away in denial....afraid to have it examined for genuine authenticity? I cannot understand this. What are your thoughts?

I think that's exactly what happens. Not every collector is really a student of the hobby. Most of this board's members will never spend $38,000 on a single card. But the percentage of knowledgeable collectors here is much higher than in the real world.

If you currently owned that card, would you prefer to resell it or take your chances that PSA will make you whole if it's rebacked?

[Chicago206]

If I bought that card (and I dont have that type of money), the very first thing I would do is to try to have it honestly analyzed for authenticity. I dont have the information on who/how this could be done, but I think there has to be some way to do so. If there isnt, then whats the point of ever buying another high dollar card ever again, right? I dont think I could ever be comfortable with such a card if even the slightest doubt was in the deepest region of my subconscience. Wouldnt you want it examined extensively for your own peace of mind?

[whitehse]

[QUOTE=Chicago206;801758]If I bought that card (and I dont have that type of money), the very first thing I would do is to try to have it honestly analyzed for authenticity. I dont have the information on who/how this could be done, but I think there has to be some way to do so. If there isnt, then whats the point of ever buying another high dollar card ever again, right? I dont think I could ever be comfortable with such a card if even the slightest doubt was in the deepest region of my subconscience. Wouldnt you want it examined extensively for your own peace of mind?[/QUOTE]


Not AFTER I buy it!

[FUBAR]

Originally Posted by Chicago206

If I bought that card (and I dont have that type of money), the very first thing I would do is to try to have it honestly analyzed for authenticity.

If I were thinking of spending that kind of money, I would make every effort to assure its authenticity BEFORE i drop the cash... Penny wise and pound foolish. I think everyone here would agree it is better to find out before and save yourself the money then to find out after and lose your investment.

[Chicago206]

Verify before you buy it? Good idea, and im sure REA wouldnt mind you taking the card for a few weeks prior to auction. Who do I ask for when I call them with this minor request?

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by FUBAR

If I were thinking of spending that kind of money, I would make every effort to assure its authenticity BEFORE i drop the cash... Penny wise and pound foolish. I think everyone here would agree it is better to find out before and save yourself the money then to find out after and lose your investment.

However, If you're a Collector, the approach may vary.
It all depends on your knowledge, and experience ... you might take a shot at something, from a gut feeling.

If there's an attempt at deception ... and I've been there ... you can beat it ... If you know the subject matter.

Ted, would you like me to post what you call diatribe on the board ... and let the people decide for themselves?
First you tell them that their answer doesn't count unless you see the card, now you tell them what to think.

Folks, believe in whatever you want to believe in ... Theories will be theories, and Facts will always be facts.

[tedzan]

Chi206

JimVB linked to my thread in which I elaborated on my research regarding the Kimball Factory (#649 Rochester, NY) that produced
the HINDU cigarettes in order explain my skepticism regarding the red Cobb/red HINDU card. I am not the sole skeptic of the legi-
timacy of this card. I can name at least 6 veteran T206 collectors (or Ty Cobb collectors) on this forum who agree with me. (I'll let
them chime in).

Needless to say, Cobb was the most famous ballplayer of the T206 era. If you count the four Cobbs' f/b permutations in the T206
set, you'll come up with at least 55 cards. So, why were any of the four Cobb's not printed with either Brown or Red HINDU backs ?
This remains a mystery and perhaps we will never know why. Anyhow, I'm convinced it has something to do with Factory #649.

The provenance of this red Cobb/red HINDU card can be traced back to the period (1999-2000) when a rash of RE-BACKED red HINDU
cards were in circulation. One of the most "infamous" one being a Matty (portrait) with a red HINDU back (an impossible f/b combo).
It was professionally graded by SGC at that time. Subsequently, SGC conceded that they were "duped" by this altered card. There
were several other T206's that were discovered re-backed back then. It's my opinion (and other's) that this Cobb was re-backed by
the same professional paper restorer that was quite busy back then re-backing T206's.

Gee, no wonder Red HINDU's are so tough to find....this pro was buying them up to do his "dirty work".


Hey guys, this is not the only BIG-BUCKS PSA graded fake in circulation, there is a Joe Doyle error card with a POLAR BEAR back out
there. I trust that most of you by now realize that the Joe Doyle error card exists only with a PIEDMONT 350 back.


Speaking about the Joe Doyle error card......brings me to respond to JOE "Potomac"........
I once knew a Joe P back in the 1980's - 1990's that was a great guy to talk BB cards for hours with. What has happened you JOE P ?

You have become a "broken record" with your endless diatribe. The only factor that I can attribute your grumpy-ness to is.....your INTELLECTUAL ENVY of others who post on this forum.

I will NOT debate with you, Joe. My favorite Uncle once gave me this good advice...."Do not ever engage in a discussion with a fool....
for, others will soon not be able to discern who the fool is between you."


T-Rex TED

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by tedzan

My favorite Uncle once gave me this good advice...."Do not ever engage in a discussion with a fool....
for, others will soon not be able to discern who the fool is between you."


T-Rex TED

My dad's version was:

"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

Exact same sentiment.