What We Have Learned About Ty Cobbs With a Ty Cobb Back

[Baseball Rarities]

Is the Ty Cobb with Cobb back listed on VCP? If so, can someoned point me in the right direction - I cannot seem to find it.

[terjung]

http://www.vintagecardprices.com/car...lue-Prices.htm

[Baseball Rarities]

Thanks Brian. Right in front of me.

[Potomac Yank]

Does that mean that it now belongs in the T206 set?

[Abravefan11]

Dumb question:

If F.R. Penn produced the Ty Cobb brand tobacco in 1910 and ATC didn't take over F.R. Penn until 1912...does that mean anything?

[Chicago206]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Dumb question:

If F.R. Penn produced the Ty Cobb brand tobacco in 1910 and ATC didn't take over F.R. Penn until 1912...does that mean anything?

It would mean that the Cobb back was not distributed by the ATC. Unless the Cobb back card was released in 1912. Then that would mean the card was not distributed in the same time frame as all other 15 branded T206 cards.

[esd10]

I dont know much about this issue but if these have tobacco stains on the back then this product was sold in a limited amount for a short time but only 15 survive? This baffles me when Cobb was such a large star of the time no one would keep this card except for a few and half came from the lucky 7 find.

[Sean]

I think that there are now 23 known, including a find of 5 cards and also the lucky 7. So more that half of them came from two sources.

[canjond]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Dumb question:

If F.R. Penn produced the Ty Cobb brand tobacco in 1910 and ATC didn't take over F.R. Penn until 1912...does that mean anything?

Yes and no... I actually have in my notes that ATC acquired F.R. Penn in 1903, and didn't fully transition it until 1912. Don't forget, this was the time when ATC was being broken up as a trust. There were many smaller brands owned and operated by ATC without full disclosure as to the breadth of ATC's holdings.

Assuming, for a minute, that ATC did not acquire F.R. Penn in 1903, the reason I still answered "yes and no" relates to when the card was issued in the product. If F.R. Penn controlled Ty Cobb in 1910, sold the brand to ATC in 1912, and then the Cobb card was produced in 1912, the date wouldn't matter per se (although I recognize that 1912 no longer puts the Cobb back in the T206 era).

That all being said, I'm pretty confident F.R. Penn was acquired in 1903.

[canjond]

From page 194 of the Report of the Commissioner of Corporations on the Tobacco Industry (1911 edition):

"Control of the F.R. Penn Tobacco Company dates from 1903, when the Combination purchased, through the American Tobacco Company, two-thirds of the . . . common stock of the reorganized F.R. Penn Tobacco Company, a North Carolina corporation . . . ."

http://books.google.com/books?id=waQ...obacco&f=false

[Abravefan11]

I get conflicting dates on the ATC take over of F.R. Penn with some information saying 1911 and some 1912.

That is your area Jon and I respect whatever you have to say on the matter.

Who had control of Penn and when could help with this debate.

[canjond]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

I get conflicting dates on the ATC take over of F.R. Penn with some information saying 1911 and some 1912.

That is your area Jon and I respect whatever you have to say on the matter.

Who had control of Penn and when could help with this debate.

Tim - we were posting at the same time. Hopefully the link above clears up the issue as this was part II of the official report generated by the US government. I believe the report was generated beginning in 1909 and published in 1911.

[tedzan]

Why are some speculating that this card was issued in "1912" ? ....Damn it, how many times do we have to state and reiterate
that this card was printed and issued in 1910 ! ?

We have Shawn's newspaper advertising evidence that the Ty Cobb Cut Plug Tobacco was available in the Spring of 1910.

We have the evidence from Senator's Russell's T206 collection which includes a Ty Cobb back card that was acquired in 1910
near Atlanta, Georgia (where he grew up collecting his tobacco cards).

How many times do we have to "bang this evidence into heads", till it sinks in. We've had numerous posts on this information,
yet some here continue to be contrarians. I, for one, cannot understand this ? Why, are we even re-hashing this "old news" ?

Is, it just because some people lack the intellectual curiosity required to simply click onto the SEARCH feature on this forum;
and, find this information ?

Damn man, how many times do we have to re-invent the "wheel" on this forum ? ?


T-Rex TED

[Chicago206]

"We have Shawn's newspaper advertising evidence that the Ty Cobb Cut Plug Tobacco was available in the Spring of 1910."


That means nothing at all. There is a pouch of Drum tobacco on ebay right now for just a grand.....but it doesnt contain a Drum backed T206 card, does it?

[canjond]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Why are some speculating that this card was issued in "1912" ? ....Damn it, how many times do we have to state and reiterate
that this card was printed and issued in 1910 ! ?

We have Shawn's newspaper advertising evidence that the Ty Cobb Cut Plug Tobacco was available in the Spring of 1910.

We have the evidence from Senator's Russell's T206 collection which includes a Ty Cobb back card that was acquired in 1910
near Atlanta, Georgia (where he grew up collecting his tobacco cards).

How many times do we have to "bang this evidence into heads", till it sinks in. We've had numerous posts on this information,
yet some here continue to be contrarians. I, for one, cannot understand this ? Why, are we even re-hashing this "old news" ?

Is, it just because some people lack the intellectual curiosity required to simply click onto the SEARCH feature on this forum;
and, find this information ?

Damn man, how many times do we have to re-invent the "wheel" on this forum ? ?


T-Rex TED

Ted - I didn't read Phil or Tim's post to be speculating on whether the card was issued in 1910. I read it to be speculating on WHO issued the card in 1910. If, in fact, F.R. Penn was not acquired by the ATC until 1912, I think that would be VERY pertinent. However, that was not the case, so all is still good. In 1903 and beyond, F.R. Penn was owned and controlled by the ATC.

Edited to add:

Ted - I also don't think it can be said with the certainty you make it "sound" that the card was issued in 1910. Yes, we have multiple newspaper ads that make it abundently clear that Ty Cobb tobacco was available in 1910, but none that I'm aware of make reference to a Ty Cobb card being issued in 1910. Also, the fact that Russell had one in his collection in or around 1910 does not mean we can pinpoint the date to 1910. We are only talking 2 years here. Circa 1910 can EASILY mean 1912. You and I agree on most T206 related things, but I couldn't make the same leap of faith as to a 1910 issue date based on your two facts above the same way you feel comfortable doing.

That all being said, I DO agree with you it is likely a 1910 issue date for other reasons. First, F.R. Penn was acquired by ATC in 1903. Second, we have advertisements that show Ty Cobb tobacco was issued in 1910 and to be honest, I don't believe the brand was around all that long based on the severe rarity of the tins so I would seriously doubt the brand even made it to 1911.

[E93]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Why are some speculating that this card was issued in "1912" ? ....Damn it, how many times do we have to state and reiterate
that this card was printed and issued in 1910 ! ?

We have Shawn's newspaper advertising evidence that the Ty Cobb Cut Plug Tobacco was available in the Spring of 1910.

We have the evidence from Senator's Russell's T206 collection which includes a Ty Cobb back card that was acquired in 1910
near Atlanta, Georgia (where he grew up collecting his tobacco cards).

How many times do we have to "bang this evidence into heads", till it sinks in. We've had numerous posts on this information,
yet some here continue to be contrarians. I, for one, cannot understand this ? Why, are we even re-hashing this "old news" ?

Is, it just because some people lack the intellectual curiosity required to simply click onto the SEARCH feature on this forum;
and, find this information ?

Damn man, how many times do we have to re-invent the "wheel" on this forum ? ?


T-Rex TED

Ted,
I share your frustration, as do many others who have contacted me privately.
JimB

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Why are some speculating that this card was issued in "1912" ? ....Damn it, how many times do we have to state and reiterate
that this card was printed and issued in 1910 ! ?

We have Shawn's newspaper advertising evidence that the Ty Cobb Cut Plug Tobacco was available in the Spring of 1910.

We have the evidence from Senator's Russell's T206 collection which includes a Ty Cobb back card that was acquired in 1910
near Atlanta, Georgia (where he grew up collecting his tobacco cards).

How many times do we have to "bang this evidence into heads", till it sinks in. We've had numerous posts on this information,
yet some here continue to be contrarians. I, for one, cannot understand this ? Why, are we even re-hashing this "old news" ?

Is, it just because some people lack the intellectual curiosity required to simply click onto the SEARCH feature on this forum;
and, find this information ?

Damn man, how many times do we have to re-invent the "wheel" on this forum ? ?


T-Rex TED

*

Maybe as many times as we had to beat it into your head that the Slow Joe error card was real.

Outside of yourself, the card was known by tobacco collectors as real since 1987.

You only discovered the Doyle error a couple of years ago.

There's an archived thread where Barry was turning blue in the face trying to convince you that the error was REAL.

Come on man, get off your cross, or horse.

[Leon]

While I respect Scot Reader's voluminous writings on T206 there is clearly not a consensus on the Cobb back as being included or not, in T206. That being said there would be no "T206" without the person that invented it, Jefferson Burdick. If anything, when there is not a clear consensus on an issue, we should go back to what Burdick wrote since he is the one that imagined it. There is no debate that he came up with the ACC system of classifying cards in the US. And I realize that even Jefferson said his ACC was, and always will be, a work in progress. He stated the Cobb back was a T206.

[Chicago206]

Originally Posted by Leon

While I respect Scot Reader's voluminous writings on T206 there is clearly not a consensus on the Cobb back as being included or not, in T206. That being said there would be no "T206" without the person that invented it, Jefferson Burdick. If anything, when there is not a clear consensus on an issue, we should go back to what Burdick wrote since he is the one that imagined it. There is no debate that he came up with the ACC system of classifying cards in the US. And I realize that even Jefferson said his ACC was, and always will be, a work in progress. He stated the Cobb back was a T206.

Just because something is initially classified as "x", doesnt make it neccesarily a fact. Case in point is the Tuatara. It was originally classified as a lizard in 1831. It looks like a typical lizard, and the classification persisted for 36 more years. Then it was debated that there were in fact subtle, yet important differences (kinda like what we are discussing here). Its classification was changed in 1867. Whats a lizard have to do with a baseball card? It simply goes to show that classifications can be wrong, even by the person who first classifies them! Its really no different than what we are talking about.

[E93]

Originally Posted by Chicago206

Whats a lizard have to do with a baseball card? It simply goes to show that classifications can be wrong, even by the person who first classifies them! Its really no different than what we are talking about.

Yes, but you have given no indication of where the Ty Cobb brand violates the original classification scheme.

White border baseball subject: Yes
Premium advertising at ATC brand on back: Yes
Produced between 1909-1911: Yes

You attempted to show where it violated it by claiming there needed to be 350+ subjects. That arbitrary scheme, which would eliminate several other T206 brands as well, is NOT the criteria Burdick used.

You can try to show where it violates the classification scheme set up by Burdick, but you cannot change his classification scheme and still call it "T206". It is not your designation to change.
JimB

[Abravefan11]

Jon - You're right I was just asking about who controlled Penn and when. Not trying to reinvent the wheel, but rather actually participate in the research.

[sgbernard]

Joe, your T206 set will never be complete without this card:

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by sgbernard

Joe, your T206 set will never be complete without this card:

*

Until now, I thought all I needed was the stinkin Wagner ... now you found that beautful unknown, and unseen by Ted, The Missing Abbaticcio back.

I Gotta Have It!

Why are you doing this to me? .....