Dawson only inductee..........

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

I love how career long consistency is dimissed as "compiling" or just "sticking around" a long time. I guess 287 wins and 3700+ K's and a 3.30 ERA over 22 seasons just doesn't mean that much anymore. I guess one has to heave the ball at 100 MPH to be considered dominant now. C'Mon Jeff, you're better than that.

I didn't say he wasn't consistent. He was! He was consistently really good. But in 22 years, only 3 top 5 finishes? And even in those 3 great years he never finished better than third in the Cy Young race? He was really good...just not great. The guy who is mostly compared to Blyleven is Don Sutton. Beyond the fact that Sutton had significantly more wins (which can be debated due to the teams Sutton played for), Sutton finished in the top 5 in the Cy Young race for 5 straight years!

[Irwin Fletcher]

Sutton may have had more top 5 Cy Young finishes, but Blyleven was the better pitcher.

Also, the voters get Cy Young and MVP voting wrong so often (though not this year), it's kind of hard to use that as a criteria. If it was wrong when the award was given, why is it right to use it as a HOF criteria?

For example, Jeter never won an MVP and most likely never will. He probably should have won in 1999 and 2006. Should Jeter not get elected because he never won an MVP, even though he should have?

EDIT: My mistake - I misremembered - Pedro should have gotten the MVP in 1999. Jeter was robbed in 2006, though.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I didn't say he wasn't consistent. He was! He was consistently really good. But in 22 years, only 3 top 5 finishes? And even in those 3 great years he never finished better than third in the Cy Young race? He was really good...just not great. The guy who is mostly compared to Blyleven is Don Sutton. Beyond the fact that Sutton had significantly more wins (which can be debated due to the teams Sutton played for), Sutton finished in the top 5 in the Cy Young race for 5 straight years!

Jeff,

Both Blyleven and Sutton pitched pre-ESPN, pre-MLB Network and pre-regional network where every game was on television. Sutton pitched in the media metropolis of Los Angeles and would definitely get more media attention and post-season consideration. Blyleven toiled in obscurity with Minnesota, Texas, Pittsburgh, Cleveland and California (before anyone in Los Angeles noticed). If Blyleven would have pitched in larger media markets, we would absolutely have contended for multiple Cy Young Awards. Blyleven should not be penalized for not getting the media access. With the age we're in now, we can move past that and focus on the pure, hard facts. Bert Blyleven is a Hall of Famer whatever era he pitched in.

[calvindog]

I think the issue re media exposure is a good point, I agree. But Blyleven still only won 20 games once despite playing on some pretty decent teams. He also only averaged 6.7 strikeouts per 9 innings -- hardly a great ratio. And he made the All-Star team only twice in 22 years. Lots of great players in lousy markets made the All-Star more than twice, right?

In 1979, the year the Pirates won the WS, Blyleven won 12 games in 37 starts and was arguably the third best pitcher on the team. He didn't pitch particularly well in 1987 the year the Twins won it all but I can't blame Blyleven for that as he was old by then.

Really good pitcher, very consistent really good pitcher, sometimes fantastic. But I just don't see him as a player that dominated his era which is my standard to make the HOF.

[Anthony S.]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I think the issue re media exposure is a good point, I agree. But Blyleven still only won 20 games once despite playing on some pretty decent teams. He also only averaged 6.7 strikeouts per 9 innings -- hardly a great ratio. And he made the All-Star team only twice in 22 years. Lots of great players in lousy markets made the All-Star more than twice, right?

In 1979, the year the Pirates won the WS, Blyleven won 12 games in 37 starts and was arguably the third best pitcher on the team. He didn't pitch particularly well in 1987 the year the Twins won it all but I can't blame Blyleven for that as he was old by then.

Really good pitcher, very consistent really good pitcher, sometimes fantastic. But I just don't see him as a player that dominated his era which is my standard to make the HOF.

First of all, I apologize to all the anti-quoters for my multiple transgressions in this thread, but with such specific points being addressed several posts after the post to which I am responding, it just makes it easier to do it this way. Secondly, I should know better than to debate Jeff (I mean that as a compliment, counselor), but here goes.

Two all-star games does seem paltry at first blush. But pitchers aren't voted on by the fans. They're often used to round out rosters in the spirit of throwing a bone to teams with no other viable all-stars, as well as all-star game managers giving preferential treatment to their own players. Consequently, deserving players get left off the roster. Blyleven went 19-7 with a 2.87 era and 1.13 whip for the 1984 Indians. He finished 3rd in the Cy Young voting that year, but didn't make the all-star game. That's a snub.

Same thing in 1989. He went 17-5 with a 2.75 era and 1.12 Whip. He finished 4th in Cy Young voting that year, but once again didn't make the all-star game.

In 1977, he led the AL with a 1.06 whip, which is damn impressive for a pitcher who threw 234 innings that year. He also had a 2.72 era (Tanana led the league at 2.53, which isn't that much better). No all-star game. Among the AL pitchers who did make the squad that year (full season stats): Dave LaRoche with his 8-7 record, 3.51 era, and 17 saves and Jim Slaton, who went 10-14 with a 3.58 era, and 1.37 whip. Once again, Blyleven seems to have been hosed.

The 6.7 career K/9innings ratio is better than Hall of Famers Juan Marichal, Gaylord Perry, Fergie Jenkins, Don Drysdale, Bob Feller, Whitey Ford, Jim Palmer, Catfish Hunter, and Walter Johnson (granted a different era and specious, but I like it). Also better than Kevin Brown, Roy Halliday, and Louisiana Lightnin' Ron Guidry. This could be a much longer list.

As for the 1979 Pirates, I agree that Blyeven, despite his 12-5 record, had a subpar year.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Anthony S.

First of all, I apologize to all the anti-quoters for my multiple transgressions in this thread, but with such specific points being addressed several posts after the post to which I am responding, it just makes it easier to do it this way. Secondly, I should know better than to debate Jeff (I mean that as a compliment, counselor), but here goes.

Two all-star games does seem paltry at first blush. But pitchers aren't voted on by the fans. They're often used to round out rosters in the spirit of throwing a bone to teams with no other viable all-stars, as well as all-star game managers giving preferential treatment to their own players. Consequently, deserving players get left off the roster. Blyleven went 19-7 with a 2.87 era and 1.13 whip for the 1984 Indians. He finished 3rd in the Cy Young voting that year, but didn't make the all-star game. That's a snub.

Same thing in 1989. He went 17-5 with a 2.75 era and 1.12 Whip. He finished 4th in Cy Young voting that year, but once again didn't make the all-star game.

In 1977, he led the AL with a 1.06 whip, which is damn impressive for a pitcher who threw 234 innings that year. He also had a 2.72 era (Tanana led the league at 2.53, which isn't that much better). No all-star game. Among the AL pitchers who did make the squad that year (full season stats): Dave LaRoche with his 8-7 record, 3.51 era, and 17 saves and Jim Slaton, who went 10-14 with a 3.58 era, and 1.37 whip. Once again, Blyleven seems to have been hosed.

The 6.7 career K/9innings ratio is better than Hall of Famers Juan Marichal, Gaylord Perry, Fergie Jenkins, Don Drysdale, Bob Feller, Whitey Ford, Jim Palmer, Catfish Hunter, and Walter Johnson (granted a different era and specious, but I like it). Also better than Kevin Brown, Roy Halliday, and Louisiana Lightnin' Ron Guidry. This could be a much longer list.

As for the 1979 Pirates, I agree that Blyeven, despite his 12-5 record, had a subpar year.

Anthony, all good points. But as someone who grew up watching baseball in the 70s and 80s, I guess Blyleven never struck me as a dominant, great pitcher. He was always really good...for many years. One huge stat to me is how he fared compared to the pitchers in his generation -- and comparative ERA is the stat to be reviewed here. Blyleven finished 135th alltime in this category. You'll see that most of the pitchers you listed with worse K/9 inning ratios fared better than Blyleven here.

[KNH]

Blyleven does not even come close to comparing to Seaver or Carlton. In an era when there were 4 man pitching staffs, his 162 game average record was 14-12. Sorry, but that's not HOF material. And a 3.31 ERA was nothing to brag about back then.

[Anthony S.]

Kary,

I agree about Seaver and Carlton, but I didn't generate the list, baseball-reference did. No clue what formula they use.

[tbob]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Jeff,

Both Blyleven and Sutton pitched pre-ESPN, pre-MLB Network and pre-regional network where every game was on television. Sutton pitched in the media metropolis of Los Angeles and would definitely get more media attention and post-season consideration. Blyleven toiled in obscurity with Minnesota, Texas, Pittsburgh, Cleveland and California (before anyone in Los Angeles noticed). If Blyleven would have pitched in larger media markets, we would absolutely have contended for multiple Cy Young Awards. Blyleven should not be penalized for not getting the media access. With the age we're in now, we can move past that and focus on the pure, hard facts. Bert Blyleven is a Hall of Famer whatever era he pitched in.

Agree 100%. The guy was 5th career in strikeouts, it's not like he was merely a "very good" pitcher. His complete games, shutouts, almost 300 victories. Can you put guys like Sutton and Early Wynn in just because they had 300 wins and ignore Blyleven who pitched on some horrendous teams.

[tbob]

A lot of guys here are too young to have seen Dawson play for the Expos. He was a stellar offensive AND defensive player. I believe he was also the only player who ever won an MVP award while playing on a LAST PLACE team. I still remember the year he played without a contract and told Dallas Green of the Cubs to merely fill in an amount. He had an incredible year and Dallas Green wrote in "$500,000" on the check which made The Hawk the second lowest paid player on the team (according to ESPN).
I had the opportunity to meet Andre Dawson and he, Ernie Banks and Brooks Robinson (who i also met) were the three classiest gentlemen and nicest players I have ever met. Good for the Hawk! Congrats Andre!

[whitehse]

I posted this on the CU boards but wanted to share it here...Sorry for not making the original post here!! I just wanted to confirm what other have said about Andre Dawson and he being one of the nicest I have ever met.

I am glad to see Andre Get in... He definitely deserves it. At the risk of sounding like I am telling stories from band camp...a few personal experiences with "The Hawk"

Some may or may not know that I worked for the Cubs in various jobs from 1982 to 1988. I did start out as game day security and because of my larger size I was put in places where...well.... they needed a big guy at the door so to speak. One of the 1st places I was assigned to was the door leading to the umpire's dressing room. Now this was located behind the Cub's dugout under the stands. If you have never been down there, imagine a dark, damp crawl space in your house with thousands of fans screaming above you. Throw in a bad smell of hot dogs and nachos and a few large rats and you get the picture. The umpires had to pass through the Cub's dugout to get to their dressing room and the players also had access to this area as well. On cold days many of the players would come back to that area to swing a bat and stay loose. I had purchased the recent edition of Sport magazine where the cover asked something along the lines of "who is the best player in the majors?" and to a man, each player that hung out there with me said without a doubt, at that time it was Dawson. Many were practically in awe of his abilities and swore up and down he was the best.

Fast forward to 1987 spring training. I was now in the front office and had traveled to Mesa, Arizona with my brother for spring training to drive a player car back to Chicago. I dont know if they still do it but back then the players would hire someone thay could trust, usually a clubhouse guy or front office person to drive their cars back to Chicago as they would not be able to drive them back themselves. My brother and I arrived at spring training and found Lee Smith, who I had come to know pretty well from working at Wrigley. Lee would always hang out with the stadium employees and shoot the bull for hours with us. He said that he would be at a local bar and grill and that we should join him that night. This was the spring training that Dawson made his Cubs debut and upon entering the bar and grill we quickly found Lee sitting with Mr. Dawson. We were invited to sit down and had dinner with them that night. Andre was a very soft spoken person who had a lot to say but you had to pull it out of him. The funny thing was that many came over and asked for autographs and since we were sitting with these 2 major stars we were asked for ours as well. I remember telling a few kids I am nobody but Lee looked at me and said "dont lie to the kids...sign the dang ball for him!!". I signed my name and somewhere out there somebody is trying to figure out who that other signature with Lee Smith and Andre Dawson is.

I found Andre (and Lee Smith) to be some of the most down to earth and gracious people I have ever met. The hall of fame sure has found a great guy to be enshrined and hopefully someday Lee will join him as well.

[calvindog]

I just read an incredible fact about Blyleven: in his entire 22 year career, he won only four games in which he gave up five earned runs or more. I wonder how many pitchers this year alone won that many games giving up five runs?

[Anthony S.]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I didn't say he wasn't consistent. He was! He was consistently really good. But in 22 years, only 3 top 5 finishes? And even in those 3 great years he never finished better than third in the Cy Young race? He was really good...just not great. The guy who is mostly compared to Blyleven is Don Sutton. Beyond the fact that Sutton had significantly more wins (which can be debated due to the teams Sutton played for), Sutton finished in the top 5 in the Cy Young race for 5 straight years!

In 1973 Blyleven came in 7th in the AL Cy Young. So he wasn't in the Top 5. This is what he accomplished that season, as compared to the other AL starting pitchers who finished in the top 10 (there was one closer, Hiller):

1st in shutouts 9
1st in WHiP 1.117
2nd in ERA 2.54
2nd in strikeouts 258 (that's the year Ryan set the record)
20 wins

But he came in 7th. 17 loses certainly didn't help matters, but he threw 25 complete games for a .500 team. The only real reason he wasn't a top 5 (or top 2 for that matter) pitcher that year was be played for a mediocre team, whereas Palmer, Hunter, and Blue were with A's and Orioles who dominated the AL in the early 70's and Wilbur Wood was pitching in a huge media market in Chicago.

[barrysloate]

I believe Blyleven only missed election this time by five votes, and Alomar by eight. Both could have gotten in with just a few more voters going their way.

[canjond]

Wow. What a joke this year's process was.