OT: How about those Twins?

[calvindog]

Nobody says that the Twins have to spend as much as the Yankees; but perhaps they could spend as much as the Royals. Or the Reds. Or the Brewers. Look, if you're going to have the ready-made excuse that the reason you lost is because of money, why bother turning on the games at all? As Todd pointed out, the Twins had four guys with 25/90 (although Morneau was out), it's not like they don't have the talent. Add two decent pitchers to that team and teach them how to run the bases and the result may have been different in this series.

[yanks12025]

Why should the twins have won game 2, if your talking about the blowning foul ball call then the twins should not have been in the playoffs to begin with because the one Tiger player got hit by the ball in the 12th inning and they never called it. That would have given the Tigers the lead.

[tbob]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

Why should the twins have won game 2, if your talking about the blowning foul ball call then the twins should not have been in the playoffs to begin with because the one Tiger player got hit by the ball in the 12th inning and they never called it. That would have given the Tigers the lead.

Amazing that the ump that made that call was once fired by MLB for being incompetent. He was out of baseball until he ran in to a buddy at a casino and got a job in the minors. He then came to the majors when the umps tried their ill-fated strike, as a scab.
That was the worst call I have ever seen in a post season game in 50 years of watching. The next worse was the call at 1b in the StL-KC WS.
Despite the call, the Twins STILL should have won the game. Nathan implodes, Gardy makes some bad decisions, etc. The Twins could have been up 2-1 playing today at the Dome but the more talented team won.

[yanks12025]

Originally Posted by tbob

Amazing that the ump that made that call was once fired by MLB for being incompetent. He was out of baseball until he ran in to a buddy at a casino and got a job in the minors. He then came to the majors when the umps tried their ill-fated strike, as a scab.
That was the worst call I have ever seen in a post season game in 50 years of watching. The next worse was the call at 1b in the StL-KC WS.
Despite the call, the Twins STILL should have won the game. Nathan implodes, Gardy makes some bad decisions, etc. The Twins could have been up 2-1 playing today at the Dome but the more talented team won.

But you guys should not have even been in the playoffs. You got in because of a umpire making a bad call.

[tbob]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

But you guys should not have even been in the playoffs. You got in because of a umpire making a bad call.

It wasn't the bottom of the last inning. The last time I looked the home team still has a chance to bat in the bottom of the inning.
Apples and oranges.

[nolemmings]

Tbob, you have a selective memory. Seems to me you were ranting back in the first half of the season about how Smith should be fired and the team was no good, etc. and etc. I told you to relax and wait until the end of the season, and guess what, they were there in post-season again.

In '87, the Twins did not go out into the free agent market to acquire those players you named. Reardon and Gladden were acquired by trade before the season began, one considered a has been and the other a considered a never was. Their cost was cheap and they blossomed--something the Twins have enjoyed before. Blyleven had been acquired nearly two years prior, again by trade (for Jay Bell, who wound up scoring the winning run off of Mariano Rivera in the 2001 WS), and was himself in his 18th season by 1987. Baylor was acquired late, playing in only 20 games and retiring after the following season. So there was no magic, open wallet that led to that '87 crown.

In '91, Morris signed as a free agent because no one else would pay what he wanted, and he got to pitch back home. He lasted that one year. Chili Davis was a nice free agent signing, but hardly the kind that leads The Sporting News to stop the presses and generate a new cover. Not really different than signing Joe Crede this year.

The Twins tried to get Cabrera early and didn't really need Pavano until Slowey got hurt and the starters struggled in June. Neither was available at the start of the season, and the price was too high on Cabrera for a long time. And what difference would that have made, really? The very most that I see is that they may have won the division outright and had their rotation set better for the playoffs than having to start Duensing in game 1. That's it. Hardly a reason to break out the torches and/or call for a blood letting.

I haven't looked hard at the upcoming free agents, but can tell you now that things won't change dramatically if at all. The Twins will make efforts to sign Cabrera and Pavano, maybe Crede too, in efforts to show Mauer that they are serious about keeping the core intact. After all, I hear nothing but bitching that free agents leave because the team has no chance of winning, and further bitching that the team does not lock up its good young players while it has the chance. Well, that's exactly what they will focus on this Winter, and if you believe they should do all that while at the same time competing for the Sabathias and Texeiras of the world, I respectfully submit that you're dreamin.

[tbob]

Todd, the Twins are paying Punto more than their #2, #3 and #5 pitchers in the rotation and we all know what a disaster Punto was until the final 2 weeks of the season. The Pohlads (like Griffith before them) are CHEAP. I guess if you want to call it the "Twins' Way," then the Twins Way is to underpay whenever possible, to take reaches in the Draft who are "signable" instead of the best players available (Maurer the exception), and to ignore free agents unless they are scrap heap players like Craig Monroe, Eddie Guardado, Mike Lamb, Livan Hernandez, the steroid 2b from Seattle, Adam Everett, the bust from the Padres, Ayala, the list goes on and on.
You are probably right on the '87 acquistions, a couple of them came in trades and were as you described "never-wases and has-beens."
I don't think I am selective on Buffet Bill Smith. He is a disaster. He got a bag of rocks for Johan Santana when he could have had Jacoby Ellsbury and or Bucholtz/Masterson or Lester. He traded away last year's MVP on the Rays, Jason Barrett who I believe hit over .300 again this year and a pitcher who was the ALCS MVP last year for Delmon Young who is an overweight singles hitter with no power who hits .275 and fields like he is on ice skates.
Smith has been an absolute disaster and I don't think he has redeemed himself with Crede who was hurt half the time and batted about .235 or Pavano and Cabrera. I have to disagree with you on Cabrera, he WAS available this winter. No one else wanted him but the A's and yet we thought Punto and Casilla were going to be the second coming of Nellie Fox and Luis Aparicio and we see where that got us.
A lot of Twins fans are hot at Smith and believe he has one more year to prove he is capable of being a major league GM. I am in that group. Just like last year he needs to shore up the pen. He needs to bring in some right handed power hitting as the Twins look sick against lefties. He needs a real
3b and a real 2b. Tolbert is another .235 hitter and Casilla is a head case. Buscher is a .235 hitter. Smith failed to bring up Valencia and Tolleson to play 3rd and second so we could see how they would fare against MLB competition.
Finally, I will tell you this Todd, down here in the SEC (the best college baseball in the nation) the coaches pray that their juniors they desperately want back are drafted by the Twins because they know the Twins won't pay enough and they will have their players back. The Dean kid, a power hitter, great defensive player and team leader for LSU is a perfect example. The Twins low-balled him and he is back in school.
Jeff is right, the Twins DO have the money, they just won't spend it.

[tbob]

The whiney baby Posada had a big home run too.


Bob, I just looked up irony in the dictionary and found this!

Jeff- Posada should have kept it in the dugout. By throwing it around and making a media event out of bitching because Burnett and Girardi preferred Molina to catch Burnett he came off as a disgruntled, self-serving jerk. I had always liked Posada but he handled it horribly. Besides he looked awful in Game 1 behind the plate.

[tbob]

The Pohlad kids have plenty of money, they just don't want to spend it on the team. It will be interesting to see how much of an attempt they make to sign Maurer over the winter. I can see Buffet Bill Smith (GM) and the FO ending up trading Maurer ala Santana to the highest bidder and getting back a bag of rocks like they did in the Santana deal.
Todd- I get tired of hearing how it is not the "Twins way" to bring in good free agents as an excuse for being cheap. In 1987 they brought in Don Baylor, Jeff Reardon, Bert Blyleven, Dan Gladden and 4 years later brought in Jack Morris, Chilli Davis and we know how that worked out. Buffet Bill could have had Cabrera and Pavano all year long for peanuts if he had gotten off his duff during the winter meetings. Now the latest runor is that in order to sign Maurer there won't be anttempts to bring these 2 guys back next year. But of course we can give Nick "Bonehead" Punto a huge raise and extension and have him hit .230 again, making more than Slowey, Blackburn, Span, etc. Sickening.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Look, if you're going to have the ready-made excuse that the reason you lost is because of money, why bother turning on the games at all?

That would explain why I haven't been to a Reds game in 5 years. They have already said they are probably going to cut the payroll next season, but they expect people to spend their money to come out an see the same 4th place team from this season? If the team isn't going to make an effort to put out an attractive product, why should I make an effort to go watch them? Short of baseball getting a salary cap by some miracle, why do these owners buy teams if they can't afford to/aren't willing to spend the money to field a competitive team?

[nolemmings]

The Twins do not need to spend money for its own sake--their payroll will rise this offseason and they presently spend more than last year's darlings in Tampa. Their payroll is slightly less than Texas and not dramatically lower than playoff teams Colorado and St. Louis. They also do not need to be taught anything--they are perennially one of the top three most fundamentally sound teams in all of baseball if not number one. Mistakes happen, and did.

My guess is that the team will spend the winter trying to sign Cabrera and Pavano, while working on Mauer. They will never spend huge dollars on a free agent pitcher, and pitching was not what cost them in the ALDS. They opened the series with a rookie #5 starter because of the way the regular season came down to the wire. In the other two games, the mighty Yankees "amassed" one run off starter Blackburn and two runs off starter Pavano, so I highly doubt some stud free agent would have done any better. The Twins had a 15 game winner who never got to throw and a 10 game winner through June on the shelf.

In sum, the Twins have won their division 5 of the last 8 seasons, and should win it again next year, barring injury and a healthy return for Morneau and Slowey.

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by Doug

Short of baseball getting a salary cap by some miracle, why do these owners buy teams if they can't afford to/aren't willing to spend the money to field a competitive team?

because baseball is a profitable business. with luxury tax and merchandise revenue sharing, every year these kc, cincy, pittsburgh etc owners are getting a nice big check from mlb. contrary to all these owners with the projections of losing millions, baseball is still very much a thriving business.

and cincy have some decent young talent...if i'm a fan and i hear cutting high salaries from aging guys such as adam harang or scott rolen, i'd probably be excited.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

cincy have some decent young talent...if i'm a fan and i hear cutting high salaries from aging guys such as adam harang or scott rolen, i'd probably be excited.

I doubt the Reds will be able to give Aaron Harang away at this point after he's been terrible the last few years and finished this season on the DL. Rolen won't be going anywhere since they were already out of it when they traded for him and they specifically said it was mostly a move for next season to add veteran leadership and upgrade the third base position. They do have a lot of young talent, but eventually all of those top 10 draft picks should pan out sooner or later. Still, the Reds would basically have to have a season like Tampa Bay did where all of the young players come together at the same time since they will all be traded for more prospects as soon as they become "too expensive".

[chaddurbin]

doug,

didn't realize the overpriced veterans are on multi-year contracts, i didn't include arroyo because i knew he still has a couple years left.

todd,

when are the twins going to cut bait on delmon young? when 2/3rd of your outfield for much of the year are offense-suppressing carlos gomez and young, it's amazing they still came back to win. i think a few guys played above their heads, cabrera and pavano made some key contributions after the trade...but the twins will be in trouble if they're the big moves this offseason. i thought dunn would've been a good fit in there to replace morneau, high hr/ops lf/1b/dh type but maybe the front office don't want a lefty-heavy lineup for next year.

(disclaimer: i'm basing most of my opinions on watching the twins the last couple weeks in the playoffs...so i wouldn't know intricate details like nick punto is an overachieving scrappy hustling white version of david eckstein or delmon young is exceedingly lucky that's why they want him in the lineup)

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

so i wouldn't know intricate details like nick punto is an overachieving scrappy hustling white version of david eckstein

Quan, it don't get much whiter than Eckstein!

[nolemmings]

Please look at your facts. The Twins have signed their first pick each year this century, and Cuddyer in 1997. Five of them, counting Cuddyer, made
the big team--Mauer, Perkins, Garza, and Span being the others--and the others are still in the organization. So give me a break when you say they don't build through the draft and that they're too cheap.

Quan, you can't be serious about replacing an MVP like Morneau with Adam Dunn. Morneau made it to 30-100 playing with a cracked bone in his back for two months and missing the last, and unlike Dunn, can carry a glove. And whereas you see these guys as having played over their heads, I see most or all of them on the rise. Kubel is legit, Span may win a batting crown someday, and Mauer and Morneau are of course the real deal. BTW, Gomez no longer starts, so our OF about which you seem to worry is Span (8th in BA with 20 something steals), Cuddyer (once Morneau returns--(.276, 32 HR 94 RBI)) and Kubel (.300, 28 HR 103 RBI), along with Delmon and Gomez.

As for Delmon Young, he is all of 24 years old, barely. He was A.L. co-player of the week the last week of the season (with Kubel). The last 18 games, when Morneau was officially put on the shelf and he got to play every day, Delmon was 30 for 81. That's .370 when every game was a must win, and oh, that's with 4 HR, 14 runs and 18 RBI batting sixth or seventh. That's roughly one-ninth of the season, projecting out at 36 HR, 126 R and 152 RBI. Now I wouldn't expect those numbers year long, but the guy is hardly a slouch slap hitter and can't be considered either a bust or on the downside of his career at 24. Also, whether it factored in or not, the poor guy lost his mother to cancer in May after a long illness, and just may not have had his act together the whole year.

[chaddurbin]

i'm saying when morneau went down, dunn could've had in a trade (or waiver).

as for young, until he learns some pitch recognition and start taking walks, his hitting is a mirage. not sure if he'll develop some power, but a sub .800ops at a corner outfield spot is not going to cut it. for the twins' sake i hope he has a matt kemp-like breakthrough next year.