More on Dave Forman

[WhenItWasAHobby]

It would indeed be interesting to find out more about the cards that Dave Forman consigned to Mastro. Were they SGC graded cards? If so, were the cards worthy of the assigned grades? This is particularly bothersome if Forman is already in debt with the auction house.

Clearly there's a lot that has yet to be brought out. From the prior article it is clear that Forman was not a rank and file bidder on Mastro's auctions, otherwise why after not paying for items won and not paid in 2007 would they let him continue to bid on auctions in 2008? There was clearly some type of cozy relationship between the two parties and perhaps a public trial with sworn testimonies from both sides will be the best means of getting to the bottom of this mess.

[David Atkatz]

"Forman had given the cards to Mastro Auctions for a future sale, but when the economy turned sour, Forman decided to hold on to the cards. Instead, Lichtman says, they were sold at a Mastro Auction for much less than Forman might have gotten at a future date with a different auction house."

What?

Forman didn't look at the catalog (on-or-off-line), see that his cards were being auctioned, and have them pulled?

Please.

[Jim VB]

Don't know anything about the specifics of this instance, but, if I remember correctly, there was another poster on one of these threads who claimed that he had consigned to Mastro before they were "sold". He claimed he had asked for his cards back once they were shifted to Legendary and his request was declined.

[tbob]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

"Forman had given the cards to Mastro Auctions for a future sale, but when the economy turned sour, Forman decided to hold on to the cards. Instead, Lichtman says, they were sold at a Mastro Auction for much less than Forman might have gotten at a future date with a different auction house."

What?

Forman didn't look at the catalog (on-or-off-line), see that his cards were being auctioned, and have them pulled?

Please.

That is pretty odd.

[Wesley]

Thanks for the article.

Ongoing litigation is going to cause irreparable damage to both companies as well as the entire hobby. With so many allegations of criminal activity by both sides, I am sure neither of the principals really want to give testimony under oath.

[botn]

Wes,

Who cares what they want???? I know what we want. I exchanged emails with Doug a few days ago and I was not reassured of what the true nature of their relationship was/is with Dave. All very unsettling.

Greg

For than 20 years- Trust no one-double check everyone has been our mantra"

We have long believed that most hobby dealers attempt to "buy junk and sell antiques." Of course, crime, scams and shill bidding has existed as long as someone has paid good money for a collectible.

We predicted a depression, the collapse of a major auction house and a major drop in the stock market.

And now we predict that when the criminal investigations are completed a number of major hobby players will be in trouble and a slew of collector/investors will either stop investing or "dump their collections."

There have been several cases in the past when the quick departure of a major collector fostered a significant drop in prices.

Regardless of how wealthy someone is, they will not invest millions of dollars on items when the authenticity and auction billing is in question. If the most important grading service falls; the founder of the leading auction house in the hobby goes to jail, and the numerous other auctions which shill are closed,the hobby will face its own Hiroshima.

Those are guilty must be severely punished. We must show no mercy.
It is time to cleanse the hobby of thieves. We look forward to the day when those who have cheated us are locked away with their hero, Mr. Madoff.

[Jim VB]

Bruce is getting soft in his old age. He used to call for the death penalty for these types of offenses.

[tbob]

Originally Posted by Yankeefan51

For than 20 years- Trust no one-double check everyone has been our mantra"

And now we predict that when the criminal investigations are completed a number of major hobby players will be in trouble and a slew of collector/investors will either stop investing or "dump their collections."

Bruce- I understand your sentiments but I can't do it. I trust an awful lot of guys here on this board and that has come through making deals with them and/or communicating with them in person or on the phone or by emails. Not everyone gets my absolute trust, but a lot of collectors here do. I don't share your dire forecast for the collectors in the hobby but do think you are probably right when it comes to the investors in the hobby. Personally, I look forward to the day when some of the collectors/investors get out and prices do fall. I will be avidly buying if and when that time comes. In the meantime I'll continue to trust my fellow collectors. How can you not? In my case I have been the recipient of several acts of complete and total kindness in the gift of cards I needed and have reciprocated with cards to other collectors who needed something I could part with at no cost.
Trust is a two way street and I am proud to have it with so many. Ok, maybe I am a tad gullible or naive but I think a lot of people here share my sentiments.
TBob
tbob

[mikedenero]

Originally Posted by Yankeefan51

And now we predict that when the criminal investigations are completed a number of major hobby players will be in trouble and a slew of collector/investors will either stop investing or "dump their collections."

Interesting point, but I respectfully disagree.

First, regardless of the ubiquitous financial scandals of the past few years, most people have not dumped their entire stock/mutual fund portfolios.

Second, possible scandals within the hobby aside, I think that seasoned collectors are generally prone to remain in the hobby for the very simple reason that they are generally able to inspect the collectibles they purchase (or are considering purchasing) and evaluate them with the aid of their own knowledge, expertise, preferences, and collecting goals. In other words, regardless of the scandals, a collector at The National can hold that T206 Walter Johnson SGC 84 in his hand, inspect the slab, measure the card, etc. That same collector cannot do the same with his IBM stock. The difference is that the seasoned collector who purchases the T206 Walter Johnson SGC 84 is generally more confident in his purchase than he is with his purchase of 1,000 shares of IBM.

Third, after he makes the purchase, he can hold that T206 Johnson in his hand, store it in his home safely, etc.; his ownership of 1,000 shares of IBM is a heckuva lot more nebulous.

Fourth, and perhaps this is my most important point. What would you rather look at while you are sitting on your couch watching the ballgame:

a) Your snow white SGC graded card box full of T206 SGC 84s; or

b) The piece of paper (written in hyrogliphics) that your local brokerage house mailed to you which lists your IBM shares somehwere around page 4 (shares that the brokerage house is holding for you in "street name," I might add)?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Wesley

Thanks for the article.

Ongoing litigation is going to cause irreparable damage to both companies as well as the entire hobby. With so many allegations of criminal activity by both sides, I am sure neither of the principals really want to give testimony under oath.

Wes, are you suggesting we hobbyists are better off not knowing the truth?

[botn]

Actually Peter, Mastro has only identified 4 lots consigned to them by Dave and 3 of those were lots consisting of SGC graded cards. The total for the 4 lots only generated $197,500 in net consignment proceeds out of a reported total consignment figure of over $569,000. So there is still lots of information missing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Greg, thanks for the clarification. For those of us (apparently a slim minority) who care about the appearance of conflict of interest (card dealer owning grading service), it would also be interesting to know what Dave bought.

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Wes, are you suggesting we hobbyists are better off not knowing the truth?

Of course not, Peter. All collectors should want to know the truth as we all devote so much time and money in this hobby. And if we can have access to the transcripts from these proceedings with testimony from Dave Forman and Doug Allen, that may help us learn the real answers to some of the questions that we have about SGC and Mastro. I do think Jeff is right though in that "The depositions are going to be utter annihilation."