More on Dave Forman

[Wesley]

Thanks for the article.

Ongoing litigation is going to cause irreparable damage to both companies as well as the entire hobby. With so many allegations of criminal activity by both sides, I am sure neither of the principals really want to give testimony under oath.

[botn]

Wes,

Who cares what they want???? I know what we want. I exchanged emails with Doug a few days ago and I was not reassured of what the true nature of their relationship was/is with Dave. All very unsettling.

Greg

For than 20 years- Trust no one-double check everyone has been our mantra"

We have long believed that most hobby dealers attempt to "buy junk and sell antiques." Of course, crime, scams and shill bidding has existed as long as someone has paid good money for a collectible.

We predicted a depression, the collapse of a major auction house and a major drop in the stock market.

And now we predict that when the criminal investigations are completed a number of major hobby players will be in trouble and a slew of collector/investors will either stop investing or "dump their collections."

There have been several cases in the past when the quick departure of a major collector fostered a significant drop in prices.

Regardless of how wealthy someone is, they will not invest millions of dollars on items when the authenticity and auction billing is in question. If the most important grading service falls; the founder of the leading auction house in the hobby goes to jail, and the numerous other auctions which shill are closed,the hobby will face its own Hiroshima.

Those are guilty must be severely punished. We must show no mercy.
It is time to cleanse the hobby of thieves. We look forward to the day when those who have cheated us are locked away with their hero, Mr. Madoff.

[Jim VB]

Bruce is getting soft in his old age. He used to call for the death penalty for these types of offenses.

[Peter_Spaeth]

A post on the other thread indicates that Dave consigned three SGC graded lots, including one set, an SGC 98 Jackie Robinson Bowman card, and an SGC 84 T205 Cobb.

[Kehfee]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A post on the other thread indicates that Dave consigned three SGC graded lots, including one set, an SGC 98 Jackie Robinson Bowman card, and an SGC 84 T205 Cobb.

I've seen the Cobb and it is beautiful and deserving of the grade. (if I'm thinking of the right one) Not sure of the others.

When its all said and done. I'd be surprised if the SGC cards were not deserving of their grades.

[David Atkatz]

Welcome back, Bruce! (Or is it really Criswell?)

Either way, still a hoot!

[tbob]

Originally Posted by Yankeefan51

For than 20 years- Trust no one-double check everyone has been our mantra"

And now we predict that when the criminal investigations are completed a number of major hobby players will be in trouble and a slew of collector/investors will either stop investing or "dump their collections."

Bruce- I understand your sentiments but I can't do it. I trust an awful lot of guys here on this board and that has come through making deals with them and/or communicating with them in person or on the phone or by emails. Not everyone gets my absolute trust, but a lot of collectors here do. I don't share your dire forecast for the collectors in the hobby but do think you are probably right when it comes to the investors in the hobby. Personally, I look forward to the day when some of the collectors/investors get out and prices do fall. I will be avidly buying if and when that time comes. In the meantime I'll continue to trust my fellow collectors. How can you not? In my case I have been the recipient of several acts of complete and total kindness in the gift of cards I needed and have reciprocated with cards to other collectors who needed something I could part with at no cost.
Trust is a two way street and I am proud to have it with so many. Ok, maybe I am a tad gullible or naive but I think a lot of people here share my sentiments.
TBob
tbob

[mikedenero]

Shouldn't we at least change the title of this thread to "More about Dave Forman"?

[Ladder7]

I agree Mike. Let's keep the name-calling to a minimum.

[mikedenero]

Originally Posted by Ladder7

I agree Mike. Let's keep the name-calling to a minimum.

Steve,

Great use of the winking smiley!

[mikedenero]

Originally Posted by tbob

In my case I have been the recipient of several acts of complete and total kindness in the gift of cards I needed and have reciprocated with cards to other collectors who needed something I could part with at no cost.

Good point, as well. This is yet another facet of our hobby which is unique in the investment arena. To piggy-back my last post, when was the last time that IBM (sorry to keep using IBM as my example) sent you a gift basket for purchasing their shares?

[mikedenero]

Originally Posted by Yankeefan51

And now we predict that when the criminal investigations are completed a number of major hobby players will be in trouble and a slew of collector/investors will either stop investing or "dump their collections."

Interesting point, but I respectfully disagree.

First, regardless of the ubiquitous financial scandals of the past few years, most people have not dumped their entire stock/mutual fund portfolios.

Second, possible scandals within the hobby aside, I think that seasoned collectors are generally prone to remain in the hobby for the very simple reason that they are generally able to inspect the collectibles they purchase (or are considering purchasing) and evaluate them with the aid of their own knowledge, expertise, preferences, and collecting goals. In other words, regardless of the scandals, a collector at The National can hold that T206 Walter Johnson SGC 84 in his hand, inspect the slab, measure the card, etc. That same collector cannot do the same with his IBM stock. The difference is that the seasoned collector who purchases the T206 Walter Johnson SGC 84 is generally more confident in his purchase than he is with his purchase of 1,000 shares of IBM.

Third, after he makes the purchase, he can hold that T206 Johnson in his hand, store it in his home safely, etc.; his ownership of 1,000 shares of IBM is a heckuva lot more nebulous.

Fourth, and perhaps this is my most important point. What would you rather look at while you are sitting on your couch watching the ballgame:

a) Your snow white SGC graded card box full of T206 SGC 84s; or

b) The piece of paper (written in hyrogliphics) that your local brokerage house mailed to you which lists your IBM shares somehwere around page 4 (shares that the brokerage house is holding for you in "street name," I might add)?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Wesley

Thanks for the article.

Ongoing litigation is going to cause irreparable damage to both companies as well as the entire hobby. With so many allegations of criminal activity by both sides, I am sure neither of the principals really want to give testimony under oath.

Wes, are you suggesting we hobbyists are better off not knowing the truth?

[botn]

Actually Peter, Mastro has only identified 4 lots consigned to them by Dave and 3 of those were lots consisting of SGC graded cards. The total for the 4 lots only generated $197,500 in net consignment proceeds out of a reported total consignment figure of over $569,000. So there is still lots of information missing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Greg, thanks for the clarification. For those of us (apparently a slim minority) who care about the appearance of conflict of interest (card dealer owning grading service), it would also be interesting to know what Dave bought.

[botn]

Well we know he did not buy a certain comic book.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Wes I certainly would like to know the truth about subjects at issue or potentially at issue in this case, but I don't think it will come out. First, the case, in my ever so humble opinion, should settle -- the debt seems clear enough and the fact that so much of it is interest gives flexibility. Second, even if it goes forward, people could take the 5th on certain lines of questioning -- which I guess would tell us something -- or, more likely, lie under oath. Third, there could be a protective order that would prevent disclosure to the public.

[Jewish-collector]

Who wants to see Dave Forman and Doug Allen both attend the Net54 dinner ???? As Mr. Spock would say, "That would be interesting"

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Wes I certainly would like to know the truth about subjects at issue or potentially at issue in this case, but I don't think it will come out. First, the case, in my ever so humble opinion, should settle -- the debt seems clear enough and the fact that so much of it is interest gives flexibility. Second, even if it goes forward, people could take the 5th on certain lines of questioning -- which I guess would tell us something -- or, more likely, lie under oath. Third, there could be a protective order that would prevent disclosure to the public.

That would be great for Mastro and SGC then.

[bigtrain]

When I want to invest, I buy stocks, bonds, mutual funds or real estate. I buy baseball cards and memorabilia for enjoyment. If they hold their value...fine. If they lose some value... I won't lose sleep over it. There are too many "investors" in the hobby. Should the problems referred to in this thread cause a few "investors" to leave the hobby, so be it. My collection may lose some of its potential resale value, but buying opportunities will be created.

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Wes, are you suggesting we hobbyists are better off not knowing the truth?

Of course not, Peter. All collectors should want to know the truth as we all devote so much time and money in this hobby. And if we can have access to the transcripts from these proceedings with testimony from Dave Forman and Doug Allen, that may help us learn the real answers to some of the questions that we have about SGC and Mastro. I do think Jeff is right though in that "The depositions are going to be utter annihilation."