SGC Going Away?

[CaramelMan]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

So if SGC is shut down, will SGC graded cards plummet in price?

Plummet? Def no

There is too much value in SGC OJ for the value to “plummet”…

The majority of “old school” collectors of OJ (on this site) won’t care if SGC doesnt slab more cards…they will be content and trade their “old school” graded cards regardless of new inventory…going “defunct” does not negate the decades of expertise overnight..

[DeanH3]

Originally Posted by CaramelMan

Plummet? Def no

There is too much value in SGC OJ for the value to “plummet”…

The majority of “old school” collectors of OJ (on this site) won’t care if SGC doesnt slab more cards…they will be content and trade their “old school” graded cards regardless of new inventory…going “defunct” does not negate the decades of expertise overnight..

Well said. I don't see why the value of SGC cards would decline. SGC would cease not because of nefarious reasons, but due to a business decision.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by DeanH3

Well said. I don't see why the value of SGC cards would decline. SGC would cease not because of nefarious reasons, but due to a business decision.

The obvious key will be having enough active buyers who still want stuff in SGC slabs such that prices continue to be supported. That likely will be the case for 6 months, 2 years, maybe even 5 years out. At some point, whether that’s 10 years or 20 years or more down the line, those collectors will decline due to exiting the hobby, dying off, or forgetting that they ever existed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by DeanH3

Well said. I don't see why the value of SGC cards would decline. SGC would cease not because of nefarious reasons, but due to a business decision.

I think if SGC goes defunct, there will be a major movement to cross cards in their holders. Not everyone of course. And eventually, people will wonder if SGC cards that come on the market are those that would not cross, which could devalue them. I just don't see a long term robust market for a discontinued brand.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by CaramelMan

As someone who collects all PSA SGC and Beckett in modern and pre-war, i can say it’s very clear which brand gets the premium on a sale…

If there was the same card in psa 10 sgc 10 (9.5) and Beckett 9.5,
The psa sells for considerably more …. PSA is the Cadillac when buyers are concerned and PSA clearly knows this…if SGC is kept, it will be the “second fiddle” in PSAs eyes with lesser fees but less value in the same grade as PSA …

This doesn’t pertain to Old Judge….SGC is the master of this era, but as soon as you get to the monster, PSA gets more dollars for the same grade in Sgc…

It’s not close in my Pujols Rookies 2001… a PSA 10 Pujols 2001 is worth its weight in gold and SGC and Beckett are FAR behind in sale values…Thus the difficulty in psa grading and crossover: they know its worth a lot more in their slab so they have to be TOUGH..

My opinion from a collector who does it all and deals with all…

And even if you “dislike” PSA very much for whatever reason, you can’t deny final sale values…

SGC experts should become the 19th century branch of psa…that’s it

Scott

You DO realize that if PSA is left without a viable competitor, they will have absolutely no incentive to perform. Their wait times will get even longer, their prices will escalate even higher, their inconsistency will get even worse, and their dreadful customer service will become non-existent. I'd also bet that we'll see even more crumpled baggies instead of slabs that actually fit the card.

If a monopolistic company has no viable competition, there are no checks and balances to keep them honest. Not good for the hobby (errrr, business), and while it may be good for Collectors (the company), it would be a disaster for collectors of the human variety.

So this is not something that even the most diehard PSA Apologist should celebrate. Things would be worse for everyone.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Who is their competition now?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Who is their competition now?

Beckett!!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

beckett!!!

lol.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think if SGC goes defunct, there will be a major movement to cross cards in their holders. Not everyone of course. And eventually, people will wonder if SGC cards that come on the market are those that would not cross, which could devalue them. I just don't see a long term robust market for a discontinued brand.

Yes, this is precisely what would happen. SGC prices would decline at a rate proportional to the probability of them crossing over to PSA slabs in the same grade. As time goes on, that probability gets lower and lower. Unfortunately though, since PSA has moved to the goal posts ~2 full grades lower for most cards, that means almost nothing crosses over these days already. So something would have to change fast to keep their prices from plummeting rather quickly. It won't take long for every youtuber to realize that they went 1 for 15 on crossovers, and that's not an exaggeration.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by perezfan

You DO realize that if PSA is left without a viable competitor, they will have absolutely no incentive to perform. Their wait times will get even longer, their prices will escalate even higher, their inconsistency will get even worse, and their dreadful customer service will become non-existent. I'd also bet that we'll see even more crumpled baggies instead of slabs that actually fit the card.

If a monopolistic company has no viable competition, there are no checks and balances to keep them honest. Not good for the hobby (errrr, business), and while it may be good for Collectors (the company), it would be a disaster for collectors of the human variety.

So this is not something that even the most diehard PSA Apologist should celebrate. Things would be worse for everyone.

We're already past that point though. The reason SGC, CGC, and now MBA are all growing quickly is precisely because of how incompetent PSA has become.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Yes, this is precisely what would happen. SGC prices would decline at a rate proportional to the probability of them crossing over to PSA slabs in the same grade. As time goes on, that probability gets lower and lower. Unfortunately though, since PSA has moved to the goal posts ~2 full grades lower for most cards, that means almost nothing crosses over these days already. So something would have to change fast to keep their prices from plummeting rather quickly. It won't take long for every youtuber to realize that they went 1 for 15 on crossovers, and that's not an exaggeration.

I am sure favored insiders would do fine on crossovers, and maybe that is already happening. The common man though? Uh, probably not.

[Johnny630]

Does anyone even try to crossover to PSA anymore? I thought people cracked and rolled the dice if they wanted a chance at a equal or greater grade.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Snowman

We're already past that point though. The reason SGC, CGC, and now MBA are all growing quickly is precisely because of how incompetent PSA has become.

I'm long CGC. They have the heritage grading other things well for a long time; stable, deep pocketed ownership; and from my perspective, very competent on the technical side of grading.

Do they market themselves well, perhaps not. But if the goal is to buy a card and trust the grading, I think CGC is right there.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Does anyone even try to crossover to PSA anymore? I thought people cracked and rolled the dice if they wanted a chance at a equal or greater grade.

Risky on a valuable card unless you are an insider. So many altered cards out there in holders.

[aconte]

Originally Posted by bk400

I'm long CGC. They have the heritage grading other things well for a long time; stable, deep pocketed ownership; and from my perspective, very competent on the technical side of grading.

Do they market themselves well, perhaps not. But if the goal is to buy a card and trust the grading, I think CGC is right there.

What will being long for CGC get you? The answer imho is the same as where
we are right now with SGC. They have been around for 20-25 years and we
are at a point where their future is being questioned and may be in doubt in
their current form. Because of this, the long term concern of value for the cards left in the SGC holder has the potential to slide.

CGC has been around a short time grading cards and don't have a
strong brand following for their graded cards. Their a long way from being
considered an industry option.

It's all a joke. Just buy the card and forget the rest.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by bk400

I'm long CGC. They have the heritage grading other things well for a long time; stable, deep pocketed ownership; and from my perspective, very competent on the technical side of grading.

Do they market themselves well, perhaps not. But if the goal is to buy a card and trust the grading, I think CGC is right there.

i agree!

[bcbgcbrcb]

Not soon enough are they going away! I will be going away from them immediately however. Stay tuned, more to follow.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by bk400

I'm long CGC. They have the heritage grading other things well for a long time; stable, deep pocketed ownership; and from my perspective, very competent on the technical side of grading.

Do they market themselves well, perhaps not. But if the goal is to buy a card and trust the grading, I think CGC is right there.

Was this CGC mystery ever solved?

[Johnny630]

How many key vintage cards that look great for their conditions do we see graded in CSG Holders in the big guys Auctions? Like REA, Heritage, And Memory Lane…I can’t think of many. Once that starts happening I may take them seriously as being a viable option.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

How many key vintage cards that look great for their conditions do we see graded in CSG Holders in the big guys Auctions? Like REA, Heritage, And Memory Lane…I can’t think of many. Once that starts happening I may take them seriously as being a viable option.

Agree. Outside of maybe one auction house, I haven't seen CSG cards in any of the major auctions.

I do see them at shows, but mainly on Pokemon and other TPG. A few vintage, but very rare.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Agree. Outside of maybe one auction house, I haven't seen CSG cards in any of the major auctions.

I do see them at shows, but mainly on Pokemon and other TPG. A few vintage, but very rare.

There's no supply because there's no demand, and there's no demand because there's no supply.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Agree. Outside of maybe one auction house, I haven't seen CSG cards in any of the major auctions.

I do see them at shows, but mainly on Pokemon and other TPG. A few vintage, but very rare.

Exactly Same here….

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Agree. Outside of maybe one auction house, I haven't seen CSG cards in any of the major auctions.

I do see them at shows, but mainly on Pokemon and other TPG. A few vintage, but very rare.

I get a ton of Pokémon popping up in my Reddit feed because I follow mostly sports card subs. That crowd only cares about what TPG is the cheapest and has the fastest turnaround. They were all about CGC until they raised prices and extended turnaround times. Then they became all about TAG until they too got overwhelmed with submissions and doubled prices and wait times. I’ve probably seen a hundred posts of people complaining that PSA ripped them off because they subbed a $5k card through GameStop for $15 and now PSA is requesting additional fees. Some of them can’t afford the additional costs and now claim PSA stole their cards. It’s crazy, it’s like the California gold rush if it were kids showing up with plastic sandcastle shovels.

[JollyElm]

These were my notes regarding CSG from a show a while back...

6. Red Headed Step-Grader
I didn’t run into too many CSG holders, but when I did, their size disparity had them situated unceremoniously in the backs of the boxes of slabs, almost entirely ignored. (Warning! Not a scientific assessment...) You get the general feeling that buyers/sellers don’t yet hold the company in high esteem (meaning, of course, as moneymakers), and I didn’t notice anyone buying the slabs, especially since dealers usually had ‘PSA-worthy prices’ attached to them. That just won’t fly at this point in time.

[OhioLawyerF5]

There was a time in the not-to-distant past when Beckett was the #1 overall grader, and PSA was #2. Thinks can change very quickly.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

There was a time in the not-to-distant past when Beckett was the #1 overall grader, and PSA was #2. Thinks can change very quickly.

I don't buy many graded cards but I see plenty of them at shows, and I don't really remember ever seeing that many cards graded by Beckett compared to PSA. When was Beckett the #1 overall grader?

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by jayshum

I don't buy many graded cards but I see plenty of them at shows, and I don't really remember ever seeing that many cards graded by Beckett compared to PSA. When was Beckett the #1 overall grader?

I can't think of a time where they completely overtook PSA in marketshare, but I would say that from around 2011-2019 they were arguably the most popular for Ultra-Modern baseball cards. Specifically this was there era where Bowman Chrome was considered the key release and BGS 9.5/10 was the key grade.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

I will be surprised if PSA keeps SGC going indefinitely. Surely, they are working towards merging whatever management, administration, logistics, grading, and slabbing functions aren't already merged. That would be Aquisitions 101. The tipping point will arrive when the IT department is ready to add SGC-graded cards to the registry. Operating two businesses that do essentially the same thing can't make sense. SGC-style slabs may become an option to appease tuxedo aficionados, but grading standards, customer service, and anything else users care about will become one and the same, if they haven't already.

It makes sense and has for Most car companies.
Ford/Lincoln/Mecury
Chrysler/Plymouth/Dodge .... /Jeep/AMC
GM with many brands.

Raleigh Bicycled bought up most large British brands and used them eventually to circumvent exclusive territories
So one city might have Raleigh/Rudge/Humber/Robin Hood/and many more.

A lot of companies also sell their products to another big company labeled as another brand but they're the same product.

As long as it's profitable, I doubt SGC is going anywhere. It probably will change for the better in some ways worse in others.

I still think they're missing out by not doing team color gaskets. Or at least a couple options for some sets that might not look as good with the black gasket like 71 Topps or 1950 Drakes. (I'm sort of odd in thinking I like the SGC holder for prewar, but the PSA holder for newer cards. )

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

I can't think of a time where they completely overtook PSA in marketshare, but I would say that from around 2011-2019 they were arguably the most popular for Ultra-Modern baseball cards. Specifically this was there era where Bowman Chrome was considered the key release and BGS 9.5/10 was the key grade.

I was never interested in Ultra-Modern or Bowman Chrome so if that was where a lot of Beckett grading was happening it would explain why I never noticed any of it. Thanks.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by jayshum

I don't buy many graded cards but I see plenty of them at shows, and I don't really remember ever seeing that many cards graded by Beckett compared to PSA. When was Beckett the #1 overall grader?

I cannot think of a time when PSA was not number 1 and SGC was not number 2 in the grading space.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

I can't think of a time where they completely overtook PSA in marketshare, but I would say that from around 2011-2019 they were arguably the most popular for Ultra-Modern baseball cards. Specifically this was there era where Bowman Chrome was considered the key release and BGS 9.5/10 was the key grade.

This is correct. BGS almost universally outsold PSA in the 2010s.

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I cannot think of a time when PSA was not number 1 and SGC was not number 2 in the grading space.

SGC didn't become the #2 grader overall until the last couple of years. Maybe if you only look at pre-war, then sure, SGC has been #2 for about 20 years. That's because Beckett tried BVG and it flopped. But overall, when you include modern cards, SGC was never even close to BGS during the 2000s and 2010s. That includes both sale prices, and marketshare. It was post-covid when SGC finally overtook BGS in total cards graded per month.

[Directly]

Received a email SGC received my order, Thank You--I have cards sent to PSA early March, still in Research, ID.==friend of mine loss 20,000 on new junk shiny cards due turnaround time--I have sold new junk cards for thousands so PSA cards do sell for substantially more $$$.--a lot of grading company I have never heard of --so is a graded 10 a 10 --??

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

This is correct. BGS almost universally outsold PSA in the 2010s.



SGC didn't become the #2 grader overall until the last couple of years. Maybe if you only look at pre-war, then sure, SGC has been #2 for about 20 years. That's because Beckett tried BVG and it flopped. But overall, when you include modern cards, SGC was never even close to BGS during the 2000s and 2010s. That includes both sale prices, and marketshare. It was post-covid when SGC finally overtook BGS in total cards graded per month.

You can still observe this if you look at cards like Jeter and Trout RCs, lots of Beckett graded examples still in the marketplace. The subgrades were very popular for a while. No longer. I don't know what happened to them, whether it was just PSA's better marketing that overtook them, they had internal issues, or both.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You can still observe this if you look at cards like Jeter and Trout RCs, lots of Beckett graded examples still in the marketplace. The subgrades were very popular for a while. No longer. I don't know what happened to them, whether it was just PSA's better marketing that overtook them, they had internal issues, or both.

Beckett pretty much died with the guy getting all the 10s/Black Labels or what ever their best grade was. A least it happened at the same time as I was selling a couple silly rare kinda expensive cards in Beckett slabs. They went from getting a lot of attention to crickets. That was my experience anyway.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

This is correct. BGS almost universally outsold PSA in the 2010s.



SGC didn't become the #2 grader overall until the last couple of years. Maybe if you only look at pre-war, then sure, SGC has been #2 for about 20 years. That's because Beckett tried BVG and it flopped. But overall, when you include modern cards, SGC was never even close to BGS during the 2000s and 2010s. That includes both sale prices, and marketshare. It was post-covid when SGC finally overtook BGS in total cards graded per month.

Thanks for the explanation. I have never paid any attention to modern or ultramodern issues so I only noticed SGC and PSA slabbed cards and I avoided vintage Beckett graded material due to their grading sheet cut cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Thanks for the explanation. I have never paid any attention to modern or ultramodern issues so I only noticed SGC and PSA slabbed cards and I avoided vintage Beckett graded material due to their grading sheet cut cards.

Speaking for myself, I never or almost never bought a Beckett graded vintage baseball card, I figured there was probably a reason it was in that holder.

[CaramelMan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Who is their competition now?

Simple answer : NASDAQ and its investors in CLCT

That is their focus with no “competitors in the market” …

Meaning they need to have a successful business model and divesting or closing units is part of being a Publicly Traded Company…

Scott

Ps: my inventions and fda devices are held by a NASDAQ company that I’m employed by as a SD so i feel the demands

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by CaramelMan

Simple answer : NASDAQ and its investors in CLCT

That is their focus with no “competitors in the market” …

Meaning they need to have a successful business model and divesting or closing units is part of being a Publicly Traded Company…

Scott

Ps: my inventions and fda devices are held by a NASDAQ company that I’m employed by as a SD so i feel the demands

Yep, and closing a successful business would not be a good idea for the shareholders.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by CaramelMan

Simple answer : NASDAQ and its investors in CLCT

That is their focus with no “competitors in the market” …

Meaning they need to have a successful business model and divesting or closing units is part of being a Publicly Traded Company…

Scott

Ps: my inventions and fda devices are held by a NASDAQ company that I’m employed by as a SD so i feel the demands

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Yep, and closing a successful business would not be a good idea for the shareholders.

CLCT is no longer trading. Collectors is privately owned, for now, so no shareholders.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There's no supply because there's no demand, and there's no demand because there's no supply.

Yogi Spaeth

[Peter_Spaeth]

What? Nat Turner took CLCT private in 2021. Ah, Chase just said that right before me.

[CaramelMan]

Off Nasdaq listing does not mean there are no shareholders…

Being on NASDAQ is difficult and expensive…

Does it trade on pink sheets now?

Totally private i find it hard to believe… All the CLCT share holders still hold the stock on pink sheets most likely…meaning they still trade and need to have good business practices/model..

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CaramelMan

Off Nasdaq listing does not mean there are no shareholders…

Being on NASDAQ is difficult and expensive…

Does it trade on pink sheets now?

Totally private i find it hard to believe… All the CLCT share holders still hold the stock on pink sheets most likely…meaning they still trade and need to have good business practices/model..

Uh, no. No need to speculate.

https://www.businesswire.com/news/ho...ctors-Universe

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by CaramelMan

Off Nasdaq listing does not mean there are no shareholders…

Being on NASDAQ is difficult and expensive…

Does it trade on pink sheets now?

Totally private i find it hard to believe… All the CLCT share holders still hold the stock on pink sheets most likely…meaning they still trade and need to have good business practices/model..

A swinnnng and a miss, strike two.

[OhioLawyerF5]

What difference does it make if it's public or private? The same business principles apply. You don't kill a profitable business you own, private or public. Especially when that 2nd business is holding off the competition from gaining market traction.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

What difference does it make if it's public or private? The same business principles apply. You don't kill a profitable business you own, private or public. Especially when that 2nd business is holding off the competition from gaining market traction.

My post was for accuracy since the statements made were not correct. Accuracy has always seemed to matter to you in all of the threads you have posted.

Anyway, how do we know that SGC is profitable for Collectors? I am not saying they are not but just not something that we are privy to. As long as competition cannot get SGC, absent Collectors selling it to them, it is Collectors brand to do with what they want. The net result is the same.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It isn't even a question of whether SGC is profitable. It's a question whether the overall enterprise would be more or less profitable with a single brand. And we have no idea without inside information about revenues, costs, projections, redundancies, etc. (which only Travis has LOL).

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It isn't even a question of whether SGC is profitable. It's a question whether the overall enterprise would be more or less profitable with a single brand. And we have no idea without inside information about revenues, costs, projections, redundancies, etc. (which only Travis has LOL).

We might not have the specific numbers, but we can get a pretty good idea based on business and market knowledge. There is very little chance that SGC is not profitable, and there is very little chance that PSA would be more profitable with SGC gone and other companies getting some portion of SGC's market share, versus PSA and SGC both operating in the space. Sure, we are all speculating on the actual numbers. But I find it hard to defend the suggestion that Collectors would benefit in any way from SGC being gone.

[theshowandme]

I agree with the Lawyer

It would be dumb to kill of SGC

[Neal]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

We might not have the specific numbers, but we can get a pretty good idea based on business and market knowledge. There is very little chance that SGC is not profitable, and there is very little chance that PSA would be more profitable with SGC gone and other companies getting some portion of SGC's market share, versus PSA and SGC both operating in the space. Sure, we are all speculating on the actual numbers. But I find it hard to defend the suggestion that Collectors would benefit in any way from SGC being gone.

Agreed
Giving submitters a choice helps prevent other TPGs from gaining market share. Eliminating the choice would GUARANTEE that some percentage of collectors would look elsewhere or not at all.

I'm sure some culture moves may take place but I don't see the SGC slab becoming extinct.



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