The Top 20 Players of the Topps Era

[rats60]

When I sold off my Topps sets, I had always intended to go back and buy an example from every Topps set. However, the project would have always started with a 1952 Topps Mantle and that never happened. So, I am lookung to revisit this project on a budget.

The run would include the top 20 players and one card from each year from 1954-1974 (excluding 1971). I am excluding 1951-1953 due to cost and asthetics. I am also going to exclude rookie cards. I want to avoid head shots and pick cards that are an astheticly pleasing example of the set.

First is a list of the top 20 players. This is my initial list:

Willie Mays
Ted Williams
Stan Musial
Roberto Clemente
Sandy Koufax
Henry Aaron
Mickey Mantle
Mike Schmidt
Johnny Bench
Yogi Berra
Frank Robinson
Bob Gibson
Joe Morgan
Tom Seaver
Jackie Robinson
Carl Yastrzemski
Eddie Mathews
Ernie Banks
Warren Spahn
Al Kaline

Next would be cards to fill in the years. I want my set to start with a 1954 Topps Yogi Berra and end with a 1974 Topps Mike Schmidt. The only other cards that I am set on are a 1956 Topps Clemente and 1965 Topps Mantle as I already have those cards.

I realize that I am locking myself into Jackie Robinson for 1955 unless I don't include him, then I would go with Ted Williams. I already have both those cards. I also have Willie Mays cards from 1966-1970, so I will probably choose one of those years.

Finally, I am excluding 1971 Topps since I have a raw set and I will be buying graded cards PSA 6-7 to fill in this run. I am not interested in buying a duplicate.

Thoughts? Is there anyone you would choose and who would you replace? Are there any cards that you think are musts for this run?

[tiger8mush]

Great idea and nice list!

If I had to be picky I'd consider (perhaps you already did) one of these:
Willie McCovey, Billy Williams, Jim Palmer, Whitey Ford or Bob Feller
over
Ernie Banks or Sandy Koufax.

But probably splitting hairs.

ETA: Likely can't add Feller due to 1956 already being taken by Clemente

[tiger8mush]

For Seaver I like 1968 (or 1974 but that is reserved for Schmidt).

[Bigdaddy]

I'd sub Nolan Ryan for Eddie Matthews, and maybe Rose for Banks.

[tiger8mush]

Here is one possible arrangement:
(forum pic max is 18 so I didn't include 1954 nor 1974)

1954 - Yogi Berra

1955 - Jackie Robinson

1956 - Roberto Clemente

1957 - Ted Williams

1958 - Al Kaline

1959 - Sandy Koufax

1960 - Stan Musial

1961 - Carl Yastrzemski (not his RC)

1962 - Warren Spahn

1963 - Eddie Mathews

1964 - Bob Gibson

1965 - Mickey Mantle

1966 - Hank Aaron

1967 - Willie Mays

1968 - Tom Seaver (not his RC)

1969 - Ernie Banks

1970 - Frank Robinson

1972 - Joe Morgan

1973 - Johnny Bench

1974 - Mike Schmidt

[JollyElm]

To add a bit of coolness to it, maybe try to fit in as many (HOFer) MVP-year cards as you can. All sorts of avenues to go down in that manner.

[jupiter451]

We all know WAR as a modern stat, but you can find the all-time career list here:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...R_career.shtml

The top 20 who have cards from your years 1954-1974 are:

5 Willie Mays+ (23) 156.1
7 Henry Aaron+ (23) 143.2
11 Stan Musial+ (22) 128.6
14 Ted Williams+ (19) 121.8
21 Mickey Mantle+ (18) 110.2
22 Tom Seaver+ (20) 109.9
23 Frank Robinson+ (21) 107.3
24 Mike Schmidt+ (18) 106.9
31 Joe Morgan+ (22) 100.6
32 Warren Spahn+ (21) 100.1
33 Carl Yastrzemski+ (23) 96.5
34 Eddie Mathews+ (17) 96
35 Phil Niekro+ (24) 95.9
37 Roberto Clemente+ (18) 94.9
42 Al Kaline+ (22) 92.7
45 Steve Carlton+ (24) 90.2
46 Gaylord Perry+ (22) 90
47 Bob Gibson+ (17) 89.1
50 Robin Roberts+ (19) 86.2
56 Fergie Jenkins+ (19) 84.1

Interesting to see some names that are not all that hot in collecting, e.g.,
Phil Niekro
Gaylord Perry
Robin Roberts
Fergie Jenkins

Others who don't seem to make the cut:
Koufax
Bench
Berra
J. Robinson
Banks
Rose

[Harliduck]

Personally I love Jolly's idea. I remember as a kid looking at the 1975 Topps MVP cards from each year and those are still iconic to me. With that said, I couldn't have a list like that without Harmon Killebrew and I would devote 1969 Topps to him...but I am biased...

[rats60]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

To add a bit of coolness to it, maybe try to fit in as many (HOFer) MVP-year cards as you can. All sorts of avenues to go down in that manner.

This is a great idea. I am thinking that I will go for the year after their big year. 1967 Frank Robinson with his Triple Crown stats, 1968 Yaz with his Triple Crown stats, 1969 Gibby with his 1.12 ERA, etc.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

Here is one possible arrangement:
(forum pic max is 18 so I didn't include 1954 nor 1974)

That selection absolutely won't do because you picked at least eight avoidable head shots.

Originally Posted by rats60

I want to avoid head shots and pick cards that are an astheticly pleasing example of the set.

So avoid head shots!

[rats60]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

Great idea and nice list!

If I had to be picky I'd consider (perhaps you already did) one of these:
Willie McCovey, Billy Williams, Jim Palmer, Whitey Ford or Bob Feller
over
Ernie Banks or Sandy Koufax.

But probably splitting hairs.

ETA: Likely can't add Feller due to 1956 already being taken by Clemente

Good suggestions. I agree Feller doesn't really fit. If I decide to go back to 1951 later, he would be one of the three. I really like Ford and he would fit with the MVP/ Cy Young theme, but who do I cut? Spahn is my 4th pitcher, but is Ford better? Or do I cut a position player? Ford was better at run prevention, but Spahn pitched longer and has the higher WAR plus 363 wins. The other 3 have multiple Cy Youngs and Koufax and Gibson both have MVPs + 2 WS MVP. I don't think I could cut Banks who has 2 MVPs as a power hitting SS. I also like McCovey, but not better than Banks and he may not fit into the year theme. Same with Palmer.

I like a lot of your card choices, but there are a few of the head shots that I wouldn't pick. I am thinking about using Jolly's suggestion and there are cards in your list that would work well with that.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

I'd sub Nolan Ryan for Eddie Matthews, and maybe Rose for Banks.

Ryan doesn't really fit the years. He would be a later card. Rose for Mathews could work as he would be a good choice for 1964, but then there is the WAR consideration.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

That selection absolutely won't do because you picked at least eight avoidable head shots.

Woops, I failed to take that into consideration. Back to the drawing board, thanks for pointing that out!

[rats60]

Originally Posted by jupiter451

we all know war as a modern stat, but you can find the all-time career list here:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...r_career.shtml

the top 20 who have cards from your years 1954-1974 are:

5 willie mays+ (23) 156.1
7 henry aaron+ (23) 143.2
11 stan musial+ (22) 128.6
14 ted williams+ (19) 121.8
21 mickey mantle+ (18) 110.2
22 tom seaver+ (20) 109.9
23 frank robinson+ (21) 107.3
24 mike schmidt+ (18) 106.9
31 joe morgan+ (22) 100.6
32 warren spahn+ (21) 100.1
33 carl yastrzemski+ (23) 96.5
34 eddie mathews+ (17) 96
35 phil niekro+ (24) 95.9
37 roberto clemente+ (18) 94.9
42 al kaline+ (22) 92.7
45 steve carlton+ (24) 90.2
46 gaylord perry+ (22) 90
47 bob gibson+ (17) 89.1
50 robin roberts+ (19) 86.2
56 fergie jenkins+ (19) 84.1

interesting to see some names that are not all that hot in collecting, e.g.,
phil niekro
gaylord perry
robin roberts
fergie jenkins

others who don't seem to make the cut:
Koufax
bench
berra
j. Robinson
banks
rose

I am not a fan of WAR, but I did consider it. It is a counting stat, so it favors players who had long careers over those who may have been better, but played for fewer years. In the end, 14 of the top 15 are on my list with only Phil Niekro and his 24 years of pitching and omission. It also seems to favor pitchers with 8 of the top 20, but the last 5.

I also like run prevention for pitchers.
Niekro ERA+ 115
Perry ERA + 117
Carlton ERA+ 115
Roberts ERA+ 113
Jenkins ERA+ 115
vs
Gibson ERA+ 127
Koufax ERA+ 131
Ford ERA+ 133

WAR also hates catchers, for some reason, and first basemen, understandable. I would take Bench, Berra and Campanella with their 8 combined MVPs over the above 5 pitchers. I would love to fit Campy into the list, but he would fit better in the earlier years.

Robinson and Koufax had short careers, so they had less chance to accumulate WAR. Jackie still averaged 6.4 WAR per season over his 10 years. Give him his age 23-27 years instead of being banned because of the color of his skin and he is at 90+.

Koufax barely pitched his first two years. He would have been in the minors if not for the rule 5 draft. He also didn't pitch 200 innings until 7th (age 25) season. His last 6 years when he became a full time starter, he accumulated 46.6 WAR, an average of 7.8. If he doesn't retire after his age 30 season, who knows what he could have done.

Banks career total was killed by his move to 1b because of a knee injury. In 8 years as a SS + 10 games in 1953, 55.1 WAR, averaging almost 7 per season. His last 10 years as a 1b, 12.6 WAR. So those 3 guys didn't have high career totals, but they had very high peaks.

[jupiter451]

Originally Posted by rats60

I am not a fan of WAR, but I did consider it. It is a counting stat, so it favors players who had long careers over those who may have been better, but played for fewer years. In the end, 14 of the top 15 are on my list with only Phil Niekro and his 24 years of pitching and omission. It also seems to favor pitchers with 8 of the top 20, but the last 5.

I also like run prevention for pitchers.
Niekro ERA+ 115
Perry ERA + 117
Carlton ERA+ 115
Roberts ERA+ 113
Jenkins ERA+ 115
vs
Gibson ERA+ 127
Koufax ERA+ 131
Ford ERA+ 133

WAR also hates catchers, for some reason, and first basemen, understandable. I would take Bench, Berra and Campanella with their 8 combined MVPs over the above 5 pitchers. I would love to fit Campy into the list, but he would fit better in the earlier years.

Robinson and Koufax had short careers, so they had less chance to accumulate WAR. Jackie still averaged 6.4 WAR per season over his 10 years. Give him his age 23-27 years instead of being banned because of the color of his skin and he is at 90+.

Koufax barely pitched his first two years. He would have been in the minors if not for the rule 5 draft. He also didn't pitch 200 innings until 7th (age 25) season. His last 6 years when he became a full time starter, he accumulated 46.6 WAR, an average of 7.8. If he doesn't retire after his age 30 season, who knows what he could have done.

Banks career total was killed by his move to 1b because of a knee injury. In 8 years as a SS + 10 games in 1953, 55.1 WAR, averaging almost 7 per season. His last 10 years as a 1b, 12.6 WAR. So those 3 guys didn't have high career totals, but they had very high peaks.

Great point about that WAR stat being cumulative. If you look at WAR/season, Jackie R. and Bench move way up the list. And for pitchers, I was surprised to find Hoyt Wilhelm with an amazing ERA+ of 147, way ahead of Koufax, Gibson, Seaver etc.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by rats60

Ryan doesn't really fit the years. He would be a later card. Rose for Mathews could work as he would be a good choice for 1964, but then there is the WAR consideration.

If you are looking for prime production in those years, Schmidt doesn't fit either. His career didn't really start until 1974. But I still like him.

[tiger8mush]

Arrangement rev B:

1954 - Yogi Berra

1955 - Jackie Robinson


1956 - Roberto Clemente


1957 - Ted Williams


1958 - Warren Spahn


1959 - Al Kaline


1960 - Hank Aaron


1961 - Sandy Koufax


1962 - Stan Musial


1963 - Ernie Banks


1964 - Eddie Mathews


1965 - Mickey Mantle


1966 - Willie Mays


1967 - Frank Robinson


1968 - Carl Yastrzemski


1969 - Bob Gibson


1970 - Johnny Bench


1972 - Joe Morgan


1973 - Tom Seaver


1974 - Mike Schmidt

p.s. I like Seaver's 1974 action shot, but you said Schmidt is a lock at 1974.

[Peter_Spaeth]

IMO you are a bit light on pitchers. I would put Ryan and Carlton on the list. To make room, I would lose Banks, and Kaline or Yaz. Or better yet just go to 22.

[jchcollins]

I'd agree that Nolan Ryan needs to be on the list somewhere. If we are relating all this to Topps, Ryan's RC was likely the most popular card in the entire vintage hobby for about 5 years or so starting close to 1990. I'm sure some would disagree, but it was and is still - certainly up there.

[skelly423]

I know he doesn't quite have the career counting stats, but I'm going to throw some love in Larry Doby's direction. Obviously there are exceptional factors to his case that go beyond statistics that are impossible to really measure. I just think he deserves to be mentioned in the conversation.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

Arrangement rev B:

Far prettier and thus much improved from your first arrangement! I'd shuffle four players around though to get better pictures overall (sadly none of the cards I'm picturing here are my own):

1954 - Ted Williams



The prettiest card in the set so it should be included!

1956 - Yogi Berra



Well it's really tough to find anything but head shots in the 1956 set and if Berra has to be somewhere....

1957 - Hank Aaron



A fabulous shot with that cool shoulder patch!

1960 - Roberto Clement



It's tough to find a much better shot of any well known player from the 1960 set than Clemente's!



I find it sad, however, that my favourite pitcher from the era, knuckleballer Phil Niekro, and base stealer par excellence Lou Brock aren't on rats60's player list. Methinks he should consider doubling his list so he could have two cards per year. That to me doesn't sound like too many cards.

[Kutcher55]

Your list looks good, rats60. Of those players, here are some years that are personal favorites of mine:

Bench: The 69 is probably the obvious choice, not going out on a limb there.

Yaz: I like the 71, it's a unique look for Yaz. 62 is also nice with the triple bat illusion.

Banks: Huge fan of a 67. Great balance on this card and great smile from Ernie.

Gibson: The '68 for the historical significance. Nice portrait too. His 71 is cool as well if you demand an action shot...

Spahn: I appreciate both the 57 and the 58. Two totally different cards, so if one doesn't strike your fancy; the other one might.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Kutcher55

Your list looks good, rats60. Of those players, here are some years that are personal favorites of mine:

Bench: The 69 is probably the obvious choice, not going out on a limb there.

Yaz: I like the 71, it's a unique look for Yaz. 62 is also nice with the triple bat illusion.

Banks: Huge fan of a 67. Great balance on this card and great smile from Ernie.

Gibson: The '68 for the historical significance. Nice portrait too. His 71 is cool as well if you demand an action shot...

Spahn: I appreciate both the 57 and the 58. Two totally different cards, so if one doesn't strike your fancy; the other one might.

+1

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I'd agree that Nolan Ryan needs to be on the list somewhere. If we are relating all this to Topps, Ryan's RC was likely the most popular card in the entire vintage hobby for about 5 years or so starting close to 1990. I'm sure some would disagree, but it was and is still - certainly up there.

I like your overall idea. I agree with the Nolan Ryan comment.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

IMO you are a bit light on pitchers. I would put Ryan and Carlton on the list. To make room, I would lose Banks, and Kaline or Yaz. Or better yet just go to 22.

The problem is that they don't fit the years. They really need to be on the correct team and that would mean adding 1971 to make room for one. Seaver could take the 1971 Topps slot and either Ryan or Carlton the 1973 slot. Those are both great looking cards. Carlton has his 27 win season. Ryan had a 2.28 ERA and 329 Ks.

[JollyElm]

Yaz has a gloriously happy 1966 card. The '71 is an awfully close-up headshot, no??

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by rats60

The problem is that they don't fit the years. They really need to be on the correct team and that would mean adding 1971 to make room for one. Seaver could take the 1971 Topps slot and either Ryan or Carlton the 1973 slot. Those are both great looking cards. Carlton has his 27 win season. Ryan had a 2.28 ERA and 329 Ks.

Or you could extend the upper boundary of your project to 1978 thus leaving slots for 25 players!

[Balticfox]

And dropping the lower boundary a year would enable this card to be added:



Unfortunately the Bob Feller card from 1952 is his Rookie card.

[rats60]

I am not doing 1951-53 because of cost and most cards are portraits. Paige is 2-3K in PSA 6 and it is still a portrait. There are only 2 HOFers who are not portraits, Newhouser, who isn't good enough for the list, and Mays, who costs ~7k. My idea was to do a fun project and not have to put much into it, so I can have a nice display of Topps designs through the years, with the best players.

[Balticfox]

Tell us which players from which year you finally choose!

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Tell us which players from which year you finally choose!

Mostly what tiger8mush had posted.
1954 Berra
1955 J Robinson
1956 Clemente
1957 T Williams
1958 Spahn
1959 Kaline
1960 Banks
1961 Aaron
1962 Musial
1963 Koufax
1964 Mathews
1965 Mantle
1966 Mays
1967 F Robinson
1968 Yastrzemski
1969 Gibson
1970 Bench
1972 Morgan
1973 Seaver
1974 Schmidt

If I go to 25 I would do
1971 Ryan or Seaver (have both raw)
1973 Seaver or Ryan (have Ryan raw)
1975 Brett (have a PSA 7 & 8)
1976 Carlton
1977 Rose
1978 Reggie Jackson

[Balticfox]

This arrangement though would enable you to eliminate the Roberto Clemente and Ernie Banks head shots while adding the best looking card from the 1954 set:

1954 #1 Williams
1955 J Robinson
1956 Berra
1957 Aaron
1958 Spahn
1959 Banks*
1960 Clemente
1961 Koufax
1962 Musial
1963 Kaline

* The 1959 Ernie Banks is a particularly great looking card:

(Not mine.)

[Peter_Spaeth]

I thought you were excluding RCs? So how can you have a 75 Brett? Sorry if I missed something.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by rats60

Mostly what tiger8mush had posted.
1954 Berra
1955 J Robinson
1956 Clemente
1957 T Williams
1958 Spahn
1959 Kaline
1960 Banks
1961 Aaron
1962 Musial
1963 Koufax
1964 Mathews
1965 Mantle
1966 Mays
1967 F Robinson
1968 Yastrzemski
1969 Gibson
1970 Bench Carlton
1972 Morgan
1973 Seaver
1974 Schmidt

If I go to 25 I would do
1971 Ryan or Seaver (have both raw)
1973 Seaver or Ryan (have Ryan raw)
1975 Brett (have a PSA 7 & 8)
1976 Carlton Bench
1977 Rose
1978 Reggie Jackson

There, fixed it for you

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I thought you were excluding RCs? So how can you have a 75 Brett? Sorry if I missed something.

I am trying to do this as inexpensive as possible, so I don't want to buy any RCs. The only graded 1975 card and the only graded Brett card I own is the 1975, so by using that card, it is one less card to buy.

Originally Posted by Balticfox

This arrangement though would enable you to eliminate the Roberto Clemente and Ernie Banks head shots while adding the best looking card from the 1954 set:

1954 #1 Williams
1955 J Robinson
1956 Berra
1957 Aaron
1958 Spahn
1959 Banks*
1960 Clemente
1961 Koufax
1962 Musial
1963 Kaline

* The 1959 Ernie Banks is a particularly great looking card:

I already have the 1954 Topps Berra, 1955 Topps Jackie Robinson and 1956 Topps Clemente so I am using those to keep my cost down.

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

There, fixed it for you

I am trying to use MVPs from either their MVP season or the year after with the stats from their MVP season. So, Bench is 1970, 71, 72 or 73. Carlton is on the wrong team in 1970, I need a Phillies card for Carlton, so it is 1976 or 1973.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by rats60

I am trying to do this as inexpensive as possible, so I don't want to buy any RCs. The only graded 1975 card and the only graded Brett card I own is the 1975, so by using that card, it is one less card to buy.

I already have the 1954 Topps Berra, 1955 Topps Jackie Robinson and 1956 Topps Clemente so I am using those to keep my cost down.

There's no need to finish such a noble project quickly though! Make it a separate collection in a separate folder/binder at which you peck away over the next five years when you have sufficient money. Not hurrying you can steadily add just the right card when you find one at the friendliest price. There's a very wide range of prices out there.

Moreover the last thing you want to do is mix slabbed cards with raw cards. You want your 20-25 card run all in one place as a set.