The Top 20 Players of the Topps Era

[Bigdaddy]

I'd sub Nolan Ryan for Eddie Matthews, and maybe Rose for Banks.

[tiger8mush]

Here is one possible arrangement:
(forum pic max is 18 so I didn't include 1954 nor 1974)

1954 - Yogi Berra

1955 - Jackie Robinson

1956 - Roberto Clemente

1957 - Ted Williams

1958 - Al Kaline

1959 - Sandy Koufax

1960 - Stan Musial

1961 - Carl Yastrzemski (not his RC)

1962 - Warren Spahn

1963 - Eddie Mathews

1964 - Bob Gibson

1965 - Mickey Mantle

1966 - Hank Aaron

1967 - Willie Mays

1968 - Tom Seaver (not his RC)

1969 - Ernie Banks

1970 - Frank Robinson

1972 - Joe Morgan

1973 - Johnny Bench

1974 - Mike Schmidt

[JollyElm]

To add a bit of coolness to it, maybe try to fit in as many (HOFer) MVP-year cards as you can. All sorts of avenues to go down in that manner.

[jupiter451]

We all know WAR as a modern stat, but you can find the all-time career list here:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...R_career.shtml

The top 20 who have cards from your years 1954-1974 are:

5 Willie Mays+ (23) 156.1
7 Henry Aaron+ (23) 143.2
11 Stan Musial+ (22) 128.6
14 Ted Williams+ (19) 121.8
21 Mickey Mantle+ (18) 110.2
22 Tom Seaver+ (20) 109.9
23 Frank Robinson+ (21) 107.3
24 Mike Schmidt+ (18) 106.9
31 Joe Morgan+ (22) 100.6
32 Warren Spahn+ (21) 100.1
33 Carl Yastrzemski+ (23) 96.5
34 Eddie Mathews+ (17) 96
35 Phil Niekro+ (24) 95.9
37 Roberto Clemente+ (18) 94.9
42 Al Kaline+ (22) 92.7
45 Steve Carlton+ (24) 90.2
46 Gaylord Perry+ (22) 90
47 Bob Gibson+ (17) 89.1
50 Robin Roberts+ (19) 86.2
56 Fergie Jenkins+ (19) 84.1

Interesting to see some names that are not all that hot in collecting, e.g.,
Phil Niekro
Gaylord Perry
Robin Roberts
Fergie Jenkins

Others who don't seem to make the cut:
Koufax
Bench
Berra
J. Robinson
Banks
Rose

[Harliduck]

Personally I love Jolly's idea. I remember as a kid looking at the 1975 Topps MVP cards from each year and those are still iconic to me. With that said, I couldn't have a list like that without Harmon Killebrew and I would devote 1969 Topps to him...but I am biased...

[rats60]

Originally Posted by jupiter451

we all know war as a modern stat, but you can find the all-time career list here:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...r_career.shtml

the top 20 who have cards from your years 1954-1974 are:

5 willie mays+ (23) 156.1
7 henry aaron+ (23) 143.2
11 stan musial+ (22) 128.6
14 ted williams+ (19) 121.8
21 mickey mantle+ (18) 110.2
22 tom seaver+ (20) 109.9
23 frank robinson+ (21) 107.3
24 mike schmidt+ (18) 106.9
31 joe morgan+ (22) 100.6
32 warren spahn+ (21) 100.1
33 carl yastrzemski+ (23) 96.5
34 eddie mathews+ (17) 96
35 phil niekro+ (24) 95.9
37 roberto clemente+ (18) 94.9
42 al kaline+ (22) 92.7
45 steve carlton+ (24) 90.2
46 gaylord perry+ (22) 90
47 bob gibson+ (17) 89.1
50 robin roberts+ (19) 86.2
56 fergie jenkins+ (19) 84.1

interesting to see some names that are not all that hot in collecting, e.g.,
phil niekro
gaylord perry
robin roberts
fergie jenkins

others who don't seem to make the cut:
Koufax
bench
berra
j. Robinson
banks
rose

I am not a fan of WAR, but I did consider it. It is a counting stat, so it favors players who had long careers over those who may have been better, but played for fewer years. In the end, 14 of the top 15 are on my list with only Phil Niekro and his 24 years of pitching and omission. It also seems to favor pitchers with 8 of the top 20, but the last 5.

I also like run prevention for pitchers.
Niekro ERA+ 115
Perry ERA + 117
Carlton ERA+ 115
Roberts ERA+ 113
Jenkins ERA+ 115
vs
Gibson ERA+ 127
Koufax ERA+ 131
Ford ERA+ 133

WAR also hates catchers, for some reason, and first basemen, understandable. I would take Bench, Berra and Campanella with their 8 combined MVPs over the above 5 pitchers. I would love to fit Campy into the list, but he would fit better in the earlier years.

Robinson and Koufax had short careers, so they had less chance to accumulate WAR. Jackie still averaged 6.4 WAR per season over his 10 years. Give him his age 23-27 years instead of being banned because of the color of his skin and he is at 90+.

Koufax barely pitched his first two years. He would have been in the minors if not for the rule 5 draft. He also didn't pitch 200 innings until 7th (age 25) season. His last 6 years when he became a full time starter, he accumulated 46.6 WAR, an average of 7.8. If he doesn't retire after his age 30 season, who knows what he could have done.

Banks career total was killed by his move to 1b because of a knee injury. In 8 years as a SS + 10 games in 1953, 55.1 WAR, averaging almost 7 per season. His last 10 years as a 1b, 12.6 WAR. So those 3 guys didn't have high career totals, but they had very high peaks.

[jupiter451]

Originally Posted by rats60

I am not a fan of WAR, but I did consider it. It is a counting stat, so it favors players who had long careers over those who may have been better, but played for fewer years. In the end, 14 of the top 15 are on my list with only Phil Niekro and his 24 years of pitching and omission. It also seems to favor pitchers with 8 of the top 20, but the last 5.

I also like run prevention for pitchers.
Niekro ERA+ 115
Perry ERA + 117
Carlton ERA+ 115
Roberts ERA+ 113
Jenkins ERA+ 115
vs
Gibson ERA+ 127
Koufax ERA+ 131
Ford ERA+ 133

WAR also hates catchers, for some reason, and first basemen, understandable. I would take Bench, Berra and Campanella with their 8 combined MVPs over the above 5 pitchers. I would love to fit Campy into the list, but he would fit better in the earlier years.

Robinson and Koufax had short careers, so they had less chance to accumulate WAR. Jackie still averaged 6.4 WAR per season over his 10 years. Give him his age 23-27 years instead of being banned because of the color of his skin and he is at 90+.

Koufax barely pitched his first two years. He would have been in the minors if not for the rule 5 draft. He also didn't pitch 200 innings until 7th (age 25) season. His last 6 years when he became a full time starter, he accumulated 46.6 WAR, an average of 7.8. If he doesn't retire after his age 30 season, who knows what he could have done.

Banks career total was killed by his move to 1b because of a knee injury. In 8 years as a SS + 10 games in 1953, 55.1 WAR, averaging almost 7 per season. His last 10 years as a 1b, 12.6 WAR. So those 3 guys didn't have high career totals, but they had very high peaks.

Great point about that WAR stat being cumulative. If you look at WAR/season, Jackie R. and Bench move way up the list. And for pitchers, I was surprised to find Hoyt Wilhelm with an amazing ERA+ of 147, way ahead of Koufax, Gibson, Seaver etc.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

To add a bit of coolness to it, maybe try to fit in as many (HOFer) MVP-year cards as you can. All sorts of avenues to go down in that manner.

This is a great idea. I am thinking that I will go for the year after their big year. 1967 Frank Robinson with his Triple Crown stats, 1968 Yaz with his Triple Crown stats, 1969 Gibby with his 1.12 ERA, etc.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

Here is one possible arrangement:
(forum pic max is 18 so I didn't include 1954 nor 1974)

That selection absolutely won't do because you picked at least eight avoidable head shots.

Originally Posted by rats60

I want to avoid head shots and pick cards that are an astheticly pleasing example of the set.

So avoid head shots!

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

That selection absolutely won't do because you picked at least eight avoidable head shots.

Woops, I failed to take that into consideration. Back to the drawing board, thanks for pointing that out!

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

I'd sub Nolan Ryan for Eddie Matthews, and maybe Rose for Banks.

Ryan doesn't really fit the years. He would be a later card. Rose for Mathews could work as he would be a good choice for 1964, but then there is the WAR consideration.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by rats60

Ryan doesn't really fit the years. He would be a later card. Rose for Mathews could work as he would be a good choice for 1964, but then there is the WAR consideration.

If you are looking for prime production in those years, Schmidt doesn't fit either. His career didn't really start until 1974. But I still like him.

[tiger8mush]

Arrangement rev B:

1954 - Yogi Berra

1955 - Jackie Robinson


1956 - Roberto Clemente


1957 - Ted Williams


1958 - Warren Spahn


1959 - Al Kaline


1960 - Hank Aaron


1961 - Sandy Koufax


1962 - Stan Musial


1963 - Ernie Banks


1964 - Eddie Mathews


1965 - Mickey Mantle


1966 - Willie Mays


1967 - Frank Robinson


1968 - Carl Yastrzemski


1969 - Bob Gibson


1970 - Johnny Bench


1972 - Joe Morgan


1973 - Tom Seaver


1974 - Mike Schmidt

p.s. I like Seaver's 1974 action shot, but you said Schmidt is a lock at 1974.

[Peter_Spaeth]

IMO you are a bit light on pitchers. I would put Ryan and Carlton on the list. To make room, I would lose Banks, and Kaline or Yaz. Or better yet just go to 22.

[jchcollins]

I'd agree that Nolan Ryan needs to be on the list somewhere. If we are relating all this to Topps, Ryan's RC was likely the most popular card in the entire vintage hobby for about 5 years or so starting close to 1990. I'm sure some would disagree, but it was and is still - certainly up there.

[skelly423]

I know he doesn't quite have the career counting stats, but I'm going to throw some love in Larry Doby's direction. Obviously there are exceptional factors to his case that go beyond statistics that are impossible to really measure. I just think he deserves to be mentioned in the conversation.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I'd agree that Nolan Ryan needs to be on the list somewhere. If we are relating all this to Topps, Ryan's RC was likely the most popular card in the entire vintage hobby for about 5 years or so starting close to 1990. I'm sure some would disagree, but it was and is still - certainly up there.

I like your overall idea. I agree with the Nolan Ryan comment.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

IMO you are a bit light on pitchers. I would put Ryan and Carlton on the list. To make room, I would lose Banks, and Kaline or Yaz. Or better yet just go to 22.

The problem is that they don't fit the years. They really need to be on the correct team and that would mean adding 1971 to make room for one. Seaver could take the 1971 Topps slot and either Ryan or Carlton the 1973 slot. Those are both great looking cards. Carlton has his 27 win season. Ryan had a 2.28 ERA and 329 Ks.

[JollyElm]

Yaz has a gloriously happy 1966 card. The '71 is an awfully close-up headshot, no??

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by rats60

The problem is that they don't fit the years. They really need to be on the correct team and that would mean adding 1971 to make room for one. Seaver could take the 1971 Topps slot and either Ryan or Carlton the 1973 slot. Those are both great looking cards. Carlton has his 27 win season. Ryan had a 2.28 ERA and 329 Ks.

Or you could extend the upper boundary of your project to 1978 thus leaving slots for 25 players!

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

Arrangement rev B:

Far prettier and thus much improved from your first arrangement! I'd shuffle four players around though to get better pictures overall (sadly none of the cards I'm picturing here are my own):

1954 - Ted Williams



The prettiest card in the set so it should be included!

1956 - Yogi Berra



Well it's really tough to find anything but head shots in the 1956 set and if Berra has to be somewhere....

1957 - Hank Aaron



A fabulous shot with that cool shoulder patch!

1960 - Roberto Clement



It's tough to find a much better shot of any well known player from the 1960 set than Clemente's!



I find it sad, however, that my favourite pitcher from the era, knuckleballer Phil Niekro, and base stealer par excellence Lou Brock aren't on rats60's player list. Methinks he should consider doubling his list so he could have two cards per year. That to me doesn't sound like too many cards.