Hobby Hustle Documentary 2-16-25

[homerunhitter]

Makes me wonder if autographs authenticated by a TPA such as PSA are a safe bet going forward. Maybe I’ll just focus on the topps certified and the upper deck legendary cuts autographs instead. At least those are more likely to be “real”.

[tjisonline]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

Makes me wonder if autographs authenticated by a TPA such as PSA are a safe bet going forward. Maybe I’ll just focus on the topps certified and the upper deck legendary cuts autographs instead. At least those are more likely to be “real”.

I don’t think anything is safe with third party autographs except for those items people know for a fact were signed by athletes. Assume that’s why we always have to remember authenticated autographs or just an opinion.

We probably staring at the tip of an autographed card scandal. Plus it’s not all by scrupulous people. It’s been known for decades that famous athletes such as Willie Mays had their wives signed check, letters, and autographs. Then we hear stories about operational bullpen, the recent alleged Jason Kelce signing scandal w/ a Beckett employee involved.

people are buying the seller much more so than autograph. For example, I didn’t feel comfortable purchasing my signed 1969 Topps Mickey Mantle until the seller shared old pictures of the card being signed at the 1989 East Coast national with him in the frame w/ Mick. In the last year, I had 3 Koufax cards signed; all coordinated by cardboard legends so fingers crossed even if they are slapped.

[homerunhitter]

Originally Posted by tjisonline

I don’t think anything is safe with third party autographs except for those items people know for a fact were signed by athletes. Assume that’s why we always have to remember authenticated autographs or just an opinion.

We probably staring at the tip of an autographed card scandal. Plus it’s not all by scrupulous people. It’s been known for decades that famous athletes such as Willie Mays had their wives signed check, letters, and autographs. Then we hear stories about operational bullpen, the recent alleged Jason Kelce signing scandal w/ a Beckett employee involved.

people are buying the seller much more so than autograph. For example, I didn’t feel comfortable purchasing my signed 1969 Topps Mickey Mantle until the seller shared old pictures of the card being signed at the 1989 East Coast national with him in the frame w/ Mick. In the last year, I had 3 Koufax cards signed; all coordinated by cardboard legends so fingers crossed even if they are slapped.

Iceberg straight ahead! Ring the bell, ring the bell! Sound the alarm! This cannot be good for the hobby. I agree with you my friend. It might get to a point where only topps certified autographs will be safe (mostly)

[bk400]

The funniest part of the documentary was when Jeffrey Lichtman (wearing a Glock T-shirt, no less) is talking about the high profile clients he's defended, contrasts it with his passion for baseball cards, and goes, "...and that's why I'm here...there's no other explanation for why a lawyer, doing the stuff I do, would ever be at -- [pauses and turns to gesture at the motley crew of card convention attendees] -- this ridiculous baseball card national for 3 days."

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by bk400

The funniest part of the documentary was when Jeffrey Lichtman (wearing a Glock T-shirt, no less) is talking about the high profile clients he's defended, contrasts it with his passion for baseball cards, and goes, "...and that's why I'm here...there's no other explanation for why a lawyer, doing the stuff I do, would ever be at -- [pauses and turns to gesture at the motley crew of card convention attendees] -- this ridiculous baseball card national for 3 days."

My favorite part of the Roy Cohn protege's segment was right after this. When after telling everyone how great of a lawyer he is, and how the only reason we see him slumming it in the courts for hobby-related cases is because of his deep love and passion for the hobby and how much he can't stand all the corruption, scams, and scandals in this hobby. Letting us know that this is his way of giving back to a hobby he loves. Then he follows it up by saying he provides defense for these crooks LOLOL.

[gonefishin]

I watched it last night, very entertaining. The family from Black Swamp find came across as sincere and the real deal. I'm happy for them!

The only thing I would like to note is regarding the forger. I don't think I can believe anything this convicted felon says. He stated that PSA used one of his autographs as an exemplar. Really, why in the hell would anyone believe anything this man says? About the only thing I believed coming out of his mouth was that he was in charge of running the sports betting and gambling ring while in prison and had 16 people working for him. He is not rehabilitated, and just like a drug addict, will be back to his same way of life within a couple of years. I don't guess that actually getting a job ever crossed his mind. According to the detective, his father reached out and stated that he had told them to stop doing the forgeries, but they didn't. The mother was complicit. I think everyone involved should have been sent to prison, not given probation that several received.

The conspiracy theories around the Black Swamp find, in my opinion, is nothing but bull crap. I for one celebrate the find and wish nothing but the best for the family.

Since "The Curse of Oak Island" wasn't shown last night, this served as a good filler.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by tjisonline

I don’t think anything is safe with third party autographs except for those items people know for a fact were signed by athletes. Assume that’s why we always have to remember authenticated autographs or just an opinion.

We probably staring at the tip of an autographed card scandal. Plus it’s not all by scrupulous people. It’s been known for decades that famous athletes such as Willie Mays had their wives signed check, letters, and autographs. Then we hear stories about operational bullpen, the recent alleged Jason Kelce signing scandal w/ a Beckett employee involved.

people are buying the seller much more so than autograph. For example, I didn’t feel comfortable purchasing my signed 1969 Topps Mickey Mantle until the seller shared old pictures of the card being signed at the 1989 East Coast national with him in the frame w/ Mick. In the last year, I had 3 Koufax cards signed; all coordinated by cardboard legends so fingers crossed even if they are slapped.

After my return to the hobby a few years ago, I've come to realize that some suspension of disbelief is required to enjoy myself. I know in the back of my mind that there is a chance that the authenticated autograph that I buy is fake. I just purchased a bunch of non-authenticated autographed 1986 Topps Mets cards. I'd like to think that no one is going to bother forging Kevin Mitchell's autograph for a $5 profit, but who knows. I still enjoy the cards for what (I think) they are.

Same with the graded cards. I collect Ozzie Smith, and not to cast aspersions on anyone who might own one, but none of the PSA 10 examples of the 1979 Topps rookie card are as good to the naked eye test as the more recently graded 9s -- but the 10s still sell for 10-50x the price of the 9s, if and when they come up for sale. But yet most of the hobby still values (literally) the opinion of third party graders and, presumably, still enjoys collecting graded cards.

I don't love the potential for fakes and some of the fallacies inherent to third party grading, but I think it's just he mental price of being in the hobby, unfortunately.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by bk400

After my return to the hobby a few years ago, I've come to realize that some suspension of disbelief is required to enjoy myself. I know in the back of my mind that there is a chance that the authenticated autograph that I buy is fake. I just purchased a bunch of non-authenticated autographed 1986 Topps Mets cards. I'd like to think that no one is going to bother forging Kevin Mitchell's autograph for a $5 profit, but who knows. I still enjoy the cards for what (I think) they are.

Same with the graded cards. I collect Ozzie Smith, and not to cast aspersions on anyone who might own one, but none of the PSA 10 examples of the 1979 Topps rookie card are as good to the naked eye test as the more recently graded 9s -- but the 10s still sell for 10-50x the price of the 9s, if and when they come up for sale. But yet most of the hobby still values (literally) the opinion of third party graders and, presumably, still enjoys collecting graded cards.

I don't love the potential for fakes and some of the fallacies inherent to third party grading, but I think it's just he mental price of being in the hobby, unfortunately.

Sadly scammers will line up around the block to sell $5 counterfeit autographs. I emailed with former MLBer Brian Holman for a few years. He has/had an amazing collection and he bought a few silly rare cards of himself I had. Brian will go out of his way to sign anything for free. Saying that I have seen a ton of his fake autos that sell for less than $5 each on eBay over the years. There is almost no risk in selling cheap fake autographs.

[homerunhitter]

Originally Posted by bk400

After my return to the hobby a few years ago, I've come to realize that some suspension of disbelief is required to enjoy myself. I know in the back of my mind that there is a chance that the authenticated autograph that I buy is fake. I just purchased a bunch of non-authenticated autographed 1986 Topps Mets cards. I'd like to think that no one is going to bother forging Kevin Mitchell's autograph for a $5 profit, but who knows. I still enjoy the cards for what (I think) they are.

Same with the graded cards. I collect Ozzie Smith, and not to cast aspersions on anyone who might own one, but none of the PSA 10 examples of the 1979 Topps rookie card are as good to the naked eye test as the more recently graded 9s -- but the 10s still sell for 10-50x the price of the 9s, if and when they come up for sale. But yet most of the hobby still values (literally) the opinion of third party graders and, presumably, still enjoys collecting graded cards.

I don't love the potential for fakes and some of the fallacies inherent to third party grading, but I think it's just he mental price of being in the hobby, unfortunately.

Very good points. I also feel that being worried all of the time would make collecting not fun. I guess another way to look at it is, as long as it’s been “blessed” authentic by PSA, it will sell (someone in the future will always but it if it’s in a slab already authenticated by PSA.)

[bk400]

Originally Posted by homerunhitter

Very good points. I also feel that being worried all of the time would make collecting not fun. I guess another way to look at it is, as long as it’s been “blessed” authentic by PSA, it will sell (someone in the future will always but it if it’s in a slab already authenticated by PSA.)

I think that's right. You've heard from collectors who are highly skeptical of PSA-graded autographs. They won't be your buyers, obviously. But for what it is worth, when I look at the PSA-graded autographs on the playing-day cards of postwar HOFers (guys like Hank Aaron) and track auctions on eBay, they seem to attract a fair amount of interest and move at market prices.

[homerunhitter]

Originally Posted by bk400

I think that's right. You've heard from collectors who are highly skeptical of PSA-graded autographs. They won't be your buyers, obviously. But for what it is worth, when I look at the PSA-graded autographs on the playing-day cards of postwar HOFers (guys like Hank Aaron) and track auctions on eBay, they seem to attract a fair amount of interest and move at market prices.

So true! I just read in Facebook in a collectors group taking about autographs, someone posted “ Needs to be authenticated... too many forgered signature out there...i heard 90% are fake.” 90% yikes, when you think about it. Does anyone think that we are seeing the tip of the iceberg currently when it comes to fake autographs being slabbed by TPAs?

[homerunhitter]

Anyone out there have ANY thoughts on this? Come on Guys!

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by tjisonline

I don’t think anything is safe with third party autographs except for those items people know for a fact were signed by athletes. Assume that’s why we always have to remember authenticated autographs or just an opinion.

We probably staring at the tip of an autographed card scandal. Plus it’s not all by scrupulous people. It’s been known for decades that famous athletes such as Willie Mays had their wives signed check, letters, and autographs. Then we hear stories about operational bullpen, the recent alleged Jason Kelce signing scandal w/ a Beckett employee involved.

This is why I stayed away from signed vintage for as long as I did. I've always thought it was hilarious that people think anyone, even the best, can determine with any sort of accuracy at all whether or not a signature is authentic. I would love to see a confusion matrix from a large sample of known authentic and fake autos. I think it would blow everyone's minds.

Bad fakes are obviously easy to detect. I'm sure some signatures are difficult to duplicate, but I'd wager good money that a large percentage of the people reading this thread could duplicate a Mickey Mantle signature after practicing it for an hour and could get it past authentication nearly every time. I know he signed a lot, but I don't think he signed nearly as much as what's out there today. I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that half of all signed Mantle cards are fake.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I'd wager good money that a large percentage of the people reading this thread could duplicate a Mickey Mantle signature after practicing it for an hour and could get it past authentication nearly every time.

Please tell me you're simply pulling our legs with that statement. As someone who has spent nearly his entire life in the study of vintage baseball autographs, I really want to believe that's the case.

If you were serious, and I pray you weren't, perhaps you may wish to conduct that experiment yourself and see how you fare. I would definitely advise against that, but it would certainly be interesting.

[notfast]

Doc was horrible. It was basically a bunch of random YouTube videos loosely tied together.

The guy at the end signing the whiteboard was bad. Those autos wouldn’t pass any authentication and most weren’t even close.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Please tell me you're simply pulling our legs with that statement. As someone who has spent nearly his entire life in the study of vintage baseball autographs, I really want to believe that's the case.

If you were serious, and I pray you weren't, perhaps you may wish to conduct that experiment yourself and see how you fare. I would definitely advise against that, but it would certainly be interesting.

Yes, that is my honest take. I think a lot of people could easily forge an autograph and get it through at both PSA and JSA. And no, I'm not going to try. Although it sounds like they wouldn't be able to get one past you, which is quite impressive.

Originally Posted by notfast

Doc was horrible. It was basically a bunch of random YouTube videos loosely tied together.

That's exactly how I felt when watching it too. I think they used every minute of footage they had. The was no cutting room floor.

[balltrash]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Bad fakes are obviously easy to detect. I'm sure some signatures are difficult to duplicate, but I'd wager good money that a large percentage of the people reading this thread could duplicate a Mickey Mantle signature after practicing it for an hour and could get it past authentication nearly every time. I know he signed a lot, but I don't think he signed nearly as much as what's out there today. I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that half of all signed Mantle cards are fake.

Standing offer of $500 cash to any member of this board who can forge a Mickey Mantle autograph and get it authenticated by PSA, JSA, or Beckett. Forward me a video of you doing the forging and the piece after it is authenticated and it will evidently be the easiest money you have ever made given that it should only take an hour to perfect.

[Lucas00]

Originally Posted by balltrash

Standing offer of $500 cash to any member of this board who can forge a Mickey Mantle autograph and get it authenticated by PSA, JSA, or Beckett. Forward me a video of you doing the forging and the piece after it is authenticated and it will evidently be the easiest money you have ever made given that it should only take an hour to perfect.

$500 and a decade prison sentence.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

$500 and a decade prison sentence.

Provided the piece was never sold as genuine, no crime would have actually been committed.

[Lucas00]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Provided the piece was never sold as genuine, no crime would have actually been committed.

Simple search on Google said this.

Yes, forging autographs on sports memorabilia, even if you don't intend to sell them, is generally considered illegal as it constitutes a form of fraud, as you are still creating a false representation of someone else's signature, which can be punishable by law depending on your jurisdiction; meaning simply creating a fake autograph, regardless of the intent to sell, can still be considered a crime.

Half of n54 seem to be lawyers. Maybe they know more.

But I'd imagine if you filled a warehouse up with forged autographs but never sold any that you'd still be in some big trouble.