SUBJECT: BEWARE Steve Verkman, Keith Vari, Leland�s, Clean Sweep & Paragon auctions

rand1com · #1 02-04-2025, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayshum

The contract says no additional fees so if there are significant costs for grading or authentication, those apparently are being paid from the 40% that the auction house is getting which does make the fee seem more reasonable.

Last line on the contract appears to state 60/40 split on authentication which likely means the same ratio for that expense as on the final take. At least, that is how I interpreted that line.

I doubt very seriously the AH is covering all of the authentication fees.

jayshum · #2 02-04-2025, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand1com

Last line on the contract appears to state 60/40 split on authentication which likely means the same ratio for that expense as on the final take. At least, that is how I interpreted that line.

I doubt very seriously the AH is covering all of the authentication fees.

You're right. I missed that.

Luke · #3 02-04-2025, 08:21 PM

Based on Steve's response via Leon, it looks to me like the consignor gets 60% of the total sale (hammer plus BP) and the AH gets 40%. In a vacuum, if the collection really took 2 trucks to haul away, I agree with Steve that that sounds like a massive amount of work (and payroll for his employees) to go through and scan and list. That's just looking at the monetary part.

It would be interesting to hear from other AH owners on how they structure taking a massive collection that is going to take them tons of hours to bring to market.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #4 02-04-2025, 08:39 PM

I would be more worried that the contract doesn't detail what was taken. I am not casting aspersions, I have no reason to believe that anyone is being dishonest, but we advise our clients to make sure that their contract is itemized to a degree that they feel protected.

As for the 60/40 split. I definitely take it to mean of the total sale price including BP.

If this was for one $100,000 item it would be nuts, but if it is for a massive collection I honestly don't think it's out of line.

When we do a massive collection it's almost always on a tiered schedule so they pay less the better the items are, but the cheap stuff is going to cost a fairly significant percentage. 40% might be a bit more than we wind up averaging over a whole collection, but it honestly doesn't strike me as all that weird.

If other companies are offering him 100% plus BP I hope he can get the collection back because that would be stellar if we're actually talking about two truckloads worth a few hundred thousand. That's a LOT of inexpensive items that take just as much work to do properly as the good stuff. I'd worry that these other offers would only cherry pick him even further so that they're only taking the premium items to give him those terms.

Peter_Spaeth · #5 02-04-2025, 08:41 PM

The OP who appears to be a knowledgeable collector could have shopped around for a better deal, no? I am not seeing any grounds to rescind this contract. It certainly doesn't sound unconscionable or anything.

Vintage Vern · #6 02-04-2025, 08:44 PM

A consignment agreement should include details about the parties involved, a description of the goods being consigned, pricing and payment terms, the consignment period, the percentage split of sales between the consignor and consignee, insurance details, any liability releases, and provisions for termination of the agreement.
Key elements to include in a consignment agreement:
Parties involved:
Names and contact information of the consignor (the person providing the goods) and the consignee (the seller).
Description of goods:
Detailed information about the items being consigned, including quantities, specifications, serial numbers, and any identifying details.
Pricing and payment terms:
The selling price of the goods, the commission percentage the consignee will receive, and the payment schedule for the consignor.
Consignment period:
The duration of the agreement, outlining the start and end dates when the consignee is authorized to sell the goods.
Ownership of goods:
Clearly stating that the consignor retains ownership of the goods until they are sold to a customer.
Insurance:
Who is responsible for insuring the goods while they are in the consignee's possession.
Marketing and display requirements:
Any specific instructions on how the consignee should market and display the consigned items.
Liability releases:
Provisions regarding potential damage to the goods while in the consignee's care and who is responsible for such damage.
Termination clause:
Conditions under which either party can terminate the agreement, including potential penalties for early termination.
Dispute resolution:
How any disputes arising from the agreement will be handled, such as through mediation or arbitration.
Governing law:
The jurisdiction where the contract will be enforced.

Casey2296 · #7 02-04-2025, 09:00 PM

Well said Chad, are you in contract law?

Anytime I've consigned I've sent a spreadsheet with every card listed and confirmed each card received by the auction house. Not realistic in OPs case but is also the reason I try to keep my collection to 500 cards max of desirable cards.

I'm also empathetic to OPs situation, letting go of a 40 year collection during a stressful life/health event cannot be easy.

jingram058 · #8 02-04-2025, 09:04 PM

If the OP is unhappy with this contract, he needs to speak with an attorney; see what legal recourse he has, if any. It's not going to be resolved via a card collecting forum.

mannequin1 · #9 02-05-2025, 11:59 AM

I was going to stay out of it but I changed my mind.

I was good friends with Joe from the mid 80's to the early 2000s. I saw a good chunk of his stuff. He had the best Rusty Staub collection in the world, virtuallly everything that existed that he could get.

About 90% of his collection is Rusty Staub. It includes multiples of every Topps card, all the Topps Test issues such as the 68 3D (I think he had 2 or 3 of them), Action Stickers, Discs, Punch-out, Greatest Moments you name it, he had at least 1 of each.

He had several original Jerseys, bats, balls, gloves, a zillion autographed items including mostly photos. You name it. if it was Staub, he had it.

I always thought it was insane that someone could be so obsessed with one player, especially a non hall-of-famer and I knew when he eventually sold the collection most of it would be hard to sell.

He should have gotten 100% or more for all the "cream" in his collection, but all the photos, newspapers, etc. I could see him getting only 50% at most due to the sheer volume.

Phil G

Vintage Vern · #10 02-04-2025, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Well said Chad, are you in contract law?

Anytime I've consigned I've sent a spreadsheet with every card listed and confirmed each card received by the auction house. Not realistic in OPs case but is also the reason I try to keep my collection to 500 cards max of desirable cards.

I'm also empathetic to OPs situation, letting go of a 40 year collection during a stressful life/health event cannot be easy.

No, but I did stay at a holiday inn.😀

Casey2296 · #11 02-04-2025, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vintage Vern

No, but I did stay at a holiday inn.😀

Haha!

Mark17 · #12 02-04-2025, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand1com

Last line on the contract appears to state 60/40 split on authentication which likely means the same ratio for that expense as on the final take. At least, that is how I interpreted that line.

I doubt very seriously the AH is covering all of the authentication fees.

Would the prior line, stating no additional fees, contradict (or negate) that final line?

Also, on that last line, who pays the 60% and who pays the 40% isn't specified. In other places, the consignor GETS the 60%. Does that final line imply the consignor gets, or pays, the 60%?

Would that ambiguity create a legal loophole?

rand1com · #13 02-04-2025, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

Would the prior line, stating no additional fees, contradict (or negate) that final line?

Also, on that last line, who pays the 60% and who pays the 40% isn't specified. In other places, the consignor GETS the 60%. Does that final line imply the consignor gets, or pays, the 60%?

Would that ambiguity create a legal loophole?

Maybe, but I doubt it.

I know lawyers look for detailed contracts but these are very basic. There is a clause somewhere in there that states your signature makes it a binding contract based on the terms agreed to or some statement like that.

I believe the consignor pays 60% of the authentication fees based on the way it is written but that is a guess on my part.

Vintage Vern · #14 02-04-2025, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand1com

Maybe, but I doubt it.

I know lawyers look for detailed contracts but these are very basic. There is a clause somewhere in there that states your signature makes it a binding contract based on the terms agreed to or some statement like that.

I believe the consignor pays 60% of the authentication fees based on the way it is written but that is a guess on my part.

You can still get out of a binding contract and that's what a consignment agreement is.

oldjudge · #15 02-04-2025, 09:01 PM

I think Verkman needs to step up and explain how he views this transaction.

Leon · #16 02-04-2025, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I think Verkman needs to step up and explain how he views this transaction.

I am sure he probably thinks a few things you should do too, Jay.

I don't think Steve owes anyone an explanation more than I quoted him.

From what I have read, seen, and know, I don't think it's right to keep this thread on the front page to the detriment of the auction house, who has an auction closing soon. It doesn't look like they did anything wrong to me. Contracts can always be negotiated. I have done good and bad deals. The consignor didn't get a bad deal here, from what has been shown. But it can be talked about ad nauseam in this other section.

the-illini · #17 02-05-2025, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

I am sure he probably thinks a few things you should do too, Jay.

I don't think Steve owes anyone an explanation more than I quoted him.

From what I have read, seen, and know, I don't think it's right to keep this thread on the front page to the detriment of the auction house, who has an auction closing soon. It doesn't look like they did anything wrong to me. Contracts can always be negotiated. I have done good and bad deals. The consignor didn't get a bad deal here, from what has been shown. But it can be talked about ad nauseam in this other section.

Is this a new policy? Feel like I have seen threads that could have been detrimental to an auction house during a live auction on the main board plenty of times.

Gorditadogg · #18 02-05-2025, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the-illini

Is this a new policy? Feel like I have seen threads that could have been detrimental to an auction house during a live auction on the main board plenty of times.

You know, the poster wasn't even a member on this board. It was his first post. Most of us are very sympathetic to anyone's complaints on here, whether it's about evil Ebay, corrupt FedEx or big uncaring auction houses.

Usually you get some insight behind the posts. If it's James, he's just letting off steam, if it's Yoda, he probably forgot his meds. But this is some random newbie poster looking to flame some well known AHs.

I don't see where he has any rights to broadcast on our forum. The thread is entertaining to me, but I am surprised that Leon allowed it in the first place.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

gunboat82 · #19 02-05-2025, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the-illini

Is this a new policy? Feel like I have seen threads that could have been detrimental to an auction house during a live auction on the main board plenty of times.

I don't know if different ads appear for different users, but the banner on my front page has a prominent Leland's ad. I imagine that has a lot to do with it.

oldjudge · #20 02-05-2025, 09:35 AM

Perhaps the original poster could, as fully as possible, list what was in the consignment. Any images would also be helpful. Things should have been fully inventoried in the contract, but save that, a public list now may help to alleviate possible issues later. Other questions that the consignor may want to try to resolve are how and for what amount is the collection insured for loss or damage. As a SoCal resident I can vouch for the fact that the unexpected can happen. Also, how will the consignor be compensated. My guess is that the auctioning of these items will take some time. Will the consignor be paid as things are sold or only at the end.

Leon · #21 02-05-2025, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the-illini

Is this a new policy? Feel like I have seen threads that could have been detrimental to an auction house during a live auction on the main board plenty of times.

No new policy. Every situation is different. My position stands.
Thanks
.

brianp-beme · #22 02-04-2025, 09:23 PM

Something I noticed in the OP's first post is the following parenthetical statement that I don't believe anyone has mentioned:

(they DID NOT take it all as discussed, but cherry picked all of the more expensive items)

So the auction house did not take everything, but just what they viewed as more expensive? And this took two trucks? I understand that there is a lot of effort to sort through a large volume of items, especially if not super well-organized, but the OP claims this bounty was cherry-picked. To me it sounds like the auction house made a one-day determination of the more valuable items, and seeing it in this light, gave the consignor a really low percentage of the final winning auction bids. I suggest the OP try to come up with a list of what was taken by the auction company, and let us know what that is.

If nothing else we can be on the lookout for when these items come up for auction, and see if the auction house has indeed been fair with their consignment offer.

brianp(arker)-beme

Mark17 · #23 02-04-2025, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Something I noticed in the OP's first post is the following parenthetical statement that I don't believe anyone has mentioned:

(they DID NOT take it all as discussed, but cherry picked all of the more expensive items)

So the auction house did not take everything, but just what they viewed as more expensive? And this took two trucks?

They came with 2 trucks, but did not take it all, so maybe what they took didn't require both trucks.

Exhibitman · #24 02-05-2025, 12:08 AM

My personal view, strictly as a hobbyist, is that 40% of the net after authentication fees is a terrible deal and borderline exploitative in a situation like the consignor describes (assuming the recitation is accurate as to how it went down). I also find the "it's a lot work" excuse to be unconvincing; we all work hard. Probably the best thing to do is for the AHs to return the items and tear up the contract, and for the OP to return the advance (or to agree on what is to be kept to repay the advance). Legalities aside, the consignor is very unhappy and the situation is just distasteful enough to make it a potential PR nightmare. In this extremely competitive hobby, it is probably a business mistake to hide behind the contract and get trashed as a result. Happy customers may tell a friend or two; unhappy customers are sure to tell ten. I wonder how many readers here made the decision not to go with Lelands or Clean Sweep as a result of what they have read.

Now, as a lawyer, if I was consulted by a CA resident who appears to be a senior and in health-related distress, my go-to would be the financial elder abuse laws. In my state, one has to be very, very careful in dealing with seniors because the legal consequences of playing fast and loose with their assets are punishing. It is a hellscape of heavy civil and potential criminal penalties; one of my clients went to jail over a transaction that might not have been treated as a crime if his counterparty had been a 45 year old man instead of an old woman. If we take the OP at face value, it appears that some items that the consignor did not think were part of the deal were taken, and that the basis for the high fees (lots of work) may not ring true if there was substantial cherry-picking. One of the things that raises my concern if I was representing the auctioneers is the lack of detail in the contract. That, plus the two-on-one, speedy dealmaking in the consignor's home, are factors that can go into a determination of potential elder financial abuse. There is just enough doodie stink on the potpourri to be concerning.

Peter_Spaeth · #25 02-04-2025, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand1com

Maybe, but I doubt it.

I know lawyers look for detailed contracts but these are very basic. There is a clause somewhere in there that states your signature makes it a binding contract based on the terms agreed to or some statement like that.

I believe the consignor pays 60% of the authentication fees based on the way it is written but that is a guess on my part.

Sorry to be harsh and of course for the OP's circumstances, but it looks like a case of consignor's regret to me and IMO just from general principles unless this deal is somehow unconscionable under industry standards, or is somehow missing enough basic terms to make it enforceable which I doubt (sure the ideal contract would cover a host of details but that's not necessary for a binding contract), then the OP will not be able to rescind it. Plus it's already been partially performed, as Leland's with the OP's consent packed the items and took them away. And maybe he got an advance too, I'd have to reread it.

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