Sad News, Rickey Henderson Passes

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Agree.

There's no way Johnny Bench was better than Ricky Henderson! Pete Rose, maybe, but not Johnny Bench.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

There's no way Johnny Bench was better than Ricky Henderson! Pete Rose, maybe, but not Johnny Bench.

Funny I feel there's no way Pete Rose was better than Henderson, but Bench clearly was.

[ASF123]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

There's no way Johnny Bench was better than Ricky Henderson! Pete Rose, maybe, but not Johnny Bench.

Rose? Rickey was an order of magnitude better than Rose. I know WAR is not the end-all be-all, but in this case they’re so far apart that it does tell you pretty much all you need on this question. Rickey 111.1, Rose 79.5. Bench had 79.1, for reference.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by ASF123

Rose? Rickey was an order of magnitude better than Rose. I know WAR is not the end-all be-all, but in this case they’re so far apart that it does tell you pretty much all you need on this question. Rickey 111.1, Rose 79.5. Bench had 79.1, for reference.

Bench had 79.1 as a Catcher with a much shorter career then both...partly or mostly because he was a full-time catcher.

I'm in the Rickey better than Rose, while Bench is much more debatable camp...simply because of the position that Bench played.

If I were to start a team off, and had to pick a young Bench, or a young Rickey...I'd probably pick Bench, having the hindsight to know the type of skillset that Bench possessed, and how rare it is to have that steady presence at that position both offensively and defensively for over a decade.

Rickey might get bored and be off somewhere else after a few seasons.

I'll give it to Rose though. He was more durable then both (not that either one was made of china either). Sometimes, just being available everyday is an under-rated skill, when it means somebody at the end of the bench has to fill in for you.

I would have certainly put Rickey ahead of Koufax however. Rickey was just as (or almost as) electric as Koufax for as long as Koufax was for a certain number of prime years......plus he was pretty damn good for another 10-15 years on top of that.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

There's no way Johnny Bench was better than Ricky Henderson! Pete Rose, maybe, but not Johnny Bench.

Ummm... Bench is universally regarded as the greatest Catcher of all time.

No one would make that claim for Henderson as an outfielder. Nobody in his/her right mind would rank Henderson above Aaron, Mays, Ruth, Musial, Mantle, DiMaggio, Williams, Cobb, Clemente and many others. Ridiculous argument.

[ASF123]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Ummm... Bench is universally regarded as the greatest Catcher of all time.

No one would make that claim for Henderson as an outfielder. Nobody in his/her right mind would rank Henderson above Aaron, Mays, Ruth, Musial, Mantle, DiMaggio, Williams, Cobb, Clemente and many others. Ridiculous argument.

I think you’re underrating just how great Rickey really was. Again, yes, WAR is not everything, but he put up one more than Mantle, 16 more than Clemente and a whole bunch more than DiMaggio, although of course Joe had military service time.

You might not rank Rickey above those guys based on other factors, and that’s fine, but it’s not ridiculous or crazy to say he was better.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by ASF123

I think you’re underrating just how great Rickey really was. Again, yes, WAR is not everything, but he put up one more than Mantle, 16 more than Clemente and a whole bunch more than DiMaggio, although of course Joe had military service time.

You might not rank Rickey above those guys based on other factors, and that’s fine, but it’s not ridiculous or crazy to say he was better.

Henderson hit . 279/ .401/ .419 OPS+ 127. 60th all-time in OBP, but his other stats are mediocre compared to those players. He wasn't an outstanding defensive player. He is the greatest base stealer of all-time, but behind all those guys mentioned on all-time lists.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by rats60

He is the greatest base stealer of all-time, but behind all those guys mentioned on all-time lists.

WPA seems like a decent measuring stick. Rickey is ranked #16, behind most of the top-tier greats mentioned (Ruth, Williams, Mays, Aaron, Mantle, Musial and Cobb) but ahead of DiMaggio and Clemente.

[D. Bergin]

Nice tribute to Henderson on The Ringer site.

https://theringer.com/2024/12/22/mlb...land-athletics

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Nice tribute to Henderson on The Ringer site.

https://theringer.com/2024/12/22/mlb...land-athletics

Thanks for posting. Interesting stat showing that he is the all-time leader in stolen bases both under age 30 and age 30+ and that no one else is in the top 18 on both lists.

[Kzoo]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Nobody in his/her right mind would rank Henderson above Aaron, Mays, Ruth, Musial, Mantle, DiMaggio, Williams, Cobb, Clemente and many others. Ridiculous argument.

Mark, I highly value your opinion in many areas of the hobby, but with Rickey it's like 'apples to oranges' in regards to most other top tier HOF'ers. Rickey's game is only really historically comparable to Cobb from your list and Rickey bettered Cobb in a few key categories.....SB's, runs and walks. Rickey isn't the same type of player as the other guys listed. His game was speed and disruption on the base paths, with some sneaky power mixed in. Just my 2 cents. RIP Rickey!

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Ummm... Bench is universally regarded as the greatest Catcher of all time.

Not true:

Top Catchers - Bleacher Report

Greatest Catchers - MLB

Originally Posted by perezfan

No one would make that claim for Henderson as an outfielder.Nobody in his/her right mind would rank Henderson above Aaron, Mays, Ruth, Musial, Mantle, DiMaggio, Williams, Cobb, Clemente and many others. Ridiculous argument.

"Right mind"? "Ridiculous"? If you're not trying to provoke hostility, you might think twice before using inflammatory terms.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Not true:

Top Catchers - Bleacher Report

Greatest Catchers - MLB



"Right mind"? "Ridiculous"? If you're not trying to provoke hostility, you might think twice before using inflammatory terms.

I am not saying they don't exist, but I've never seen a statistically based argument that Berra was better than Bench. That argument always feels driven by nostalgia/romantic notions about intangibles etc.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am not saying they don't exist, but I've never seen a statistically based argument that Berra was better than Bench. That argument always feels driven by nostalgia/romantic notions about intangibles etc.

I'd rate Johnny Bench well ahead of Yogi Berra as well. But Perezfan said "universal". My underlying objection was to Perezfan's extreme choice of words when responding to my post.

[jingram058]

I stay away from "the greatest ever" statements and discussions because it's purely subjective; opinion based. In Rickey Henderson's case, there is no argument. When it comes to base stealing, he's hands down the greatest ever. And base stealing would appear to be a lost art in today's game.