Richie Allen and Dave Parker.

[Snapolit1]

Bravo. I like it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Existing thread. Can we combine?

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=349079

[lumberjack]

Richie Allen had to go thru some stuff, but they certainly didn't put him in the Hall because he was a great team man.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by lumberjack

Richie Allen had to go thru some stuff, but they certainly didn't put him in the Hall because he was a great team man.

Many of his former managers and teammates have disputed that assessment of him.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Many of his former managers and teammates have disputed that assessment of him.

+1
Chuck Tanner and Jim Kaat had nothing but great things to say about Dick Allen.

[lumberjack]

I base what I am saying on Bill James' evaluation of Allen. Of course, Bill James thought George Sisler and Bill Terry were overrated and refused to believe Pete Rose bet on games for far too long.

Bill James is always a good read.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Although he later recanted, in his 2003 tome, James says Biggio is better than Griffey.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by lumberjack

I base what I am saying on Bill James' evaluation of Allen. Of course, Bill James thought George Sisler and Bill Terry were overrated and refused to believe Pete Rose bet on games for far too long.

Bill James is always a good read.

I can't find the recent article I was reading about this, but here's a link to an older one. Also, one of the reasons he didn't get along with the media (at least in Philly) is because they refused to use his preferred name when writing about him which was Dick not Richie.

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/mlb/...21g1mm49z9wvnr

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by jayshum

I can't find the recent article I was reading about this, but here's a link to an older one. Also, one of the reasons he didn't get along with the media (at least in Philly) is because they refused to use his preferred name when writing about him which was Dick not Richie.

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/mlb/...21g1mm49z9wvnr

Dick Allen is certainly a controversial figure.

Here is another article, which was written in SABR magazine in 1995 and reposted here about the subject: https://web.archive.org/web/20190411...ory=11&id=2065

Gene Mauch managed Allen longer than any other manager, and had this to say about Allen:

"I've never been in contact with a greater talent. He was held in absolute awe by every player in the league. He had tremendous power. He had a great feel for the game, and he was one of the finest base runners -- which is different from base stealing -- that I ever saw. If I was managing California today and Allen was in his prime, I'd take him in a minute."

James' basic complaint against Allen is that he was a divisive presence on his teams, that: "Every team that he played for degenerated into warring camps of pro-Dick Allen and anti-Dick Allen factions." When Mauch was asked if that was true with any of his teams, he was emphatic in his denial, "Never. His teammates always liked him. You could go forever and not meet a more charming fellow." Later in the interview he came back to this topic to make the following point:

"He wasn't doing anything to hurt [his teammates] play of the game, and he didn't involve his teammates in his problems. When he was personally rebellious, he didn't try to bring other players into it."

Chuck Tanner, his coach while with with the White Sox had this to say: "Dick was the leader of our team, the captain, the manager on the field. He took care of the young kids, took them under his wing. And he played every game as if it was his last day on earth."

Manager Red Schoendienst who coached him in St. Louis remembered Dick this way:

"He did a real fine job for me. He had a great year, led our team in RBIs, and he never gave me any trouble. ... I planned on using him at first base, but with [Mike] Shannon's illness, I had to use him some at third base, and I played him a few games in the outfield, too. He was good about that."

When asked if Allen was a divisive presence among his teammates, Red said, "Absolutely not. He was great in our clubhouse. He got along with everybody. He wasn't a rah-rah guy, but he came to play. They respected him, and they liked him."

When White Sox GM Roland Holland was asked whether the team ever divided into pro-Allen and anti-Allen groups, he said, "No, there was none of that" and when Tanner was asked the same question about Bill James' criticism of Allen as a disruptive presence on a team Tanner said, "He's full of #@#@#@#@, and you be sure to tell him that."

In his biography Clearing Bases, Mike Schmidt credited Dick Allen in as his mentor. According to Schmidt "The baseball writers used to claim that Dick would divide the clubhouse along racial lines. That was a lie. The truth is that Dick never divided any clubhouse."

Perhaps some of this is revisionist history, but I am glad Allen finally got in, and think he was deserving.

[jayshum]

Here's the article I was looking for, but it may be paywalled.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/2025-cla...te-dick-allen/

From the article in case you can't get to it:

"Allen did nothing to deserve the racism and hatred he battled in Little Rock and Philadelphia, or the condescension of the lily-white, paternalistic media that refused to even call him by his correct name. To underplay the extent to which those forces shaped his conduct and his public persona thereafter is to hold him to an impossibly high standard; not everyone can be Jackie Robinson or Ernie Banks, nor should they have to be. The distortions that influenced the negative views of him — including Bill James’ crushing dismissal (“[Allen] did more to keep his teams from winning than anybody else who ever played major league baseball. And if that’s a Hall of Famer, I’m a lug nut.”) in The Politics of Glory — were damaging. To give them the upper hand is to reject honest inquiry into his career.

Sabermetrician Don Malcolm called that passage “the absolute nadir of Bill James’ career, a summary statement so blatantly biased that his long-time friend and associate Craig Wright felt compelled to write an essay refuting Bill’s perspective… Everyone knows that Dick Allen was a great hitter; there’s just all that other baggage that they’re afraid to open.” Having opened it, well, it’s not pretty, but by now it’s abundantly clear that it wasn’t all Allen’s baggage to begin with. Wright’s work, which featured interviews with all but one of Allen’s big league managers (the late Dodgers skipper Walter Alston) as well as several teammates, strongly refutes the notion that Allen was a divisive clubhouse presence or a particular problem for his managers aside from his early-career tardiness (and his extreme behavior in 1969). “His teammates always liked him,” said Mauch. “He wasn’t doing anything to hurt [his teammates] play of the game, and he didn’t involve his teammates in his problems. When he was personally rebellious, he didn’t try to bring other players into it.”

Even Skinner and Ozark, the two managers portrayed as the most openly critical of him, told Wright that Allen wasn’t the problem with their teams and that they’d have him back again if given the chance."

[toppcat]

Dave Parker makes Harold Baines look like a first ballot HOF selection.

[Snapolit1]

I don’t think it would have taken much to convince the Dick Young’s of the world that Allen was some sort of violent black panther activist.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Dave Parker makes Harold Baines look like a first ballot HOF selection.

There were times when Parker was considered one of the top players in the game. I'm not sure the same was ever true about Baines.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by jayshum

There were times when Parker was considered one of the top players in the game. I'm not sure the same was ever true about Baines.

+1

Parker finished in the top 20 in MVP voting 9 times, Baines 4 times. Parker was in the top 10 6 times, winning once. Baines only made one appearance in the top 10 and that was a 9th place finish.

[jingram058]

Happy for Allen. Parker, not so sure. Once again, too many better ballplayers languishing in the Hall of Never Getting In, for whatever reasons.

But as others have said here, other than the HoF country club, and people on these forums, no one cares.

[Vintagedeputy]

Garvey snubbed again. Unreal.

[packs]

Pretty surprised Vic Harris got almost no support.

There needs to be another pre-integration vote for only pre-integration players to give proper focus and respect to this era of baseball. this committee does not take it seriously enough in its current iteration.

[John1941]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Here is another article, which was written in SABR magazine in 1995 and reposted here about the subject: https://web.archive.org/web/20190411...ory=11&id=2065

Thanks for sharing the Craig Wright article - really informative read.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

+1

Parker finished in the top 20 in MVP voting 9 times, Baines 4 times. Parker was in the top 10 6 times, winning once. Baines only made one appearance in the top 10 and that was a 9th place finish.

Parker was top 5 five times and is 38th all time in MVP shares. Harold Baines is 673rd.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by packs

Pretty surprised Vic Harris got almost no support.

There needs to be another pre-integration vote for only pre-integration players to give proper focus and respect to this era of baseball. this committee does not take it seriously enough in its current iteration.

Why? In 2006; they formed a special committee. There were 94 players who were evaluated. That was paired down to 39 for a vote. Each one was given a yes or no vote. All 39 could have been elected, but only 17 were. Harris was in the 94 and didn't make the cut. Donaldson was in the 39 and was voted no on.

This is a lot different than what someone like Parker went through. Everytime he has been voted on, the voters were limited how many players they can choose. From his first ballot, he is the 11th Hall of Famer elected from that ballot and there are about 6 more who are deserving. It would be impossible to have elected all of these due to the number voters could vote for.

His last time on the ballot, he was on a ballot with 13 Hofers, plus steroid users and a few more that will be elected in the future.

His first time on the Veterans Committee, he was one of 12. 3 were elected with 100%, that is why no one else received 6 votes. Parker is the 6th Hofer off that ballot.

His second time on the ballot, Morris received 14/16, Trammell 13/16, future Hofer Simmons 11/16 and future Hofer Miller 7/16. That left 3 votes for the other 6 guys on the ballot. Parker is the 5th Hofer from that ballot.

Unless the voting system is changed to give voters the option of voting for everyone, like on the Negro League ballot, you are going to see the same players get voted on with a few new names replacing those who were voted in.

[packs]

Originally Posted by rats60

Why? In 2006; they formed a special committee. There were 94 players who were evaluated. That was paired down to 39 for a vote. Each one was given a yes or no vote. All 39 could have been elected, but only 17 were. Harris was in the 94 and didn't make the cut. Donaldson was in the 39 and was voted no on.

This is a lot different than what someone like Parker went through. Everytime he has been voted on, the voters were limited how many players they can choose. From his first ballot, he is the 11th Hall of Famer elected from that ballot and there are about 6 more who are deserving. It would be impossible to have elected all of these due to the number voters could vote for.

His last time on the ballot, he was on a ballot with 13 Hofers, plus steroid users and a few more that will be elected in the future.

His first time on the Veterans Committee, he was one of 12. 3 were elected with 100%, that is why no one else received 6 votes. Parker is the 6th Hofer off that ballot.

His second time on the ballot, Morris received 14/16, Trammell 13/16, future Hofer Simmons 11/16 and future Hofer Miller 7/16. That left 3 votes for the other 6 guys on the ballot. Parker is the 5th Hofer from that ballot.

Unless the voting system is changed to give voters the option of voting for everyone, like on the Negro League ballot, you are going to see the same players get voted on with a few new names replacing those who were voted in.

My point wasn't that Vic Harris deserves more attention but that players of his era, who were not able to play in MLB baseball, haven't had enough opportunities to be considered for enshrinement or for their careers to be talked about in relation to the HOF. Talking about it once doesn't really satisfy that.

Parker was voted on 19 times.

[brian1961]

The Baseball Hall of Fame had better put Dick Allen, and NOT Richie or Rich, on his plaque. That's the way Dick would want it. I know he's not around to say, but addressing him as Dick is what the man always wanted, in essentially the same way as Clemente always preferred Roberto.

I just wish Dick had lived long enough to see this day, and be at Cooperstown for his official enshrinement. Sadly, Dick's not the first, and won't be the last. --- Brian Powell

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Dave Parker makes Harold Baines look like a first ballot HOF selection.

My point, which could have been more elegant I guess, was to point out neither had a HOF career.

[Mungo Hungo]

Originally Posted by toppcat

My point, which could have been more elegant I guess, was to point out neither had a HOF career.

Maybe not, but Parker sure looked like a HOFer in the 70s. At the end of his first five seasons as a full-time starter, he was a superstar, right up there with Brett and the other players who broke in at around the same time.

I don't remember anyone every saying that Baines was a superstar ... because he just wasn't. If you take the best five individual years from the two players combined, arguably all five would be by Parker. Only one by Baines (1984) even merits consideration.

[bcbgcbrcb]

For all of the people who support Mattingly for election to the Hall (seems to me that at least as many as supported Parker) based on his peak 5 or so year run, Parker was only slightly less dominant during his mid-late 70's peak but following his ugly last few seasons in Pittsburgh, he went on to have nearly a decade of very productive numbers elsewhere while Mattingly pretty much fell off the face of the earth after his peak years. Yeah, he was injured, but that's part of his career as well.

The Cobra was my childhood favorite ballplayer and thrilled to finally see him get in after nearly 30 years of waiting.

[ALBB]

I think both were very good players. But neither HOF worthy

[jsfriedm]

There's no way they keep Andruw Jones or Jim Edmonds or even Dale Murphy out of the HOF if Dave Parker is in.

[Mozzie22]

Originally Posted by jsfriedm

There's no way they keep Andruw Jones or Jim Edmonds or even Dale Murphy out of the HOF if Dave Parker is in.

This.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Murphy is a good candidate who played during mostly the same era and had similar peak numbers to Parker but the Cobra far outperforms him for aggregate “rest of career” seasons. Also, Murthy’s teams never won anything, a big detractor against his case. Edmonds & Jones were both steroid-era guys when the game’s offensive numbers were much different than they were in the 70’s and early-mid 80’s. Don’t think either comes close to measuring up to Parker.

[KJA]

Originally Posted by jsfriedm

There's no way they keep Andruw Jones or Jim Edmonds or even Dale Murphy out of the HOF if Dave Parker is in.

I think Jones goes in before he is off the ballot, the 10 gold gloves will get him in.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jsfriedm

There's no way they keep Andruw Jones or Jim Edmonds or even Dale Murphy out of the HOF if Dave Parker is in.

Disagree. It doesn't work that way. Baines has been in for years, all three of those guys were better than Baines, but hasn't gotten them in. Each player is his own thing.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by KJA

I think Jones goes in before he is off the ballot, the 10 gold gloves will get him in.

He was so so bad with the Dodgers, and walking to the plate to "Don't Worry Be Happy" was so so annoying...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

He was so so bad with the Dodgers, and walking to the plate to "Don't Worry Be Happy" was so so annoying...

.158 in 75 games. He's just NOT getting into the Hall with a .254 lifetime BA IMO, I don't care how many great catches he made or that he had some great power years.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

.158 in 75 games. He's just NOT getting into the Hall with a .254 lifetime BA IMO, I don't care how many great catches he made or that he had some great power years.

The only position player with a lower lifetime batting average than Andruw Jones in the HOF is catcher Ray Schalk at .253. Then comes Killebrew at .256.

There are certainly other players with double digit Gold Gloves that have yet to get in—Vizquel and Keith Hernandez each had 11. But who knows, just need some friends as voters.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by jsfriedm

There's no way they keep Andruw Jones or Jim Edmonds or even Dale Murphy out of the HOF if Dave Parker is in.

I agree. Dale Murphy was the best player in baseball at his prime. The back to back MVPs does it for me. And Andruw Jones? The guy hit over 400 home runs and is the best defensive center fielder in history. 10 straight gold gloves? DWar was double that of Willie Mays and Roberto Clemente.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

There are certainly other players with double digit Gold Gloves that have yet to get in—Vizquel and Keith Hernandez each had 11. But who knows, just need some friends as voters.

If Bill Mazeroski can get in for his defense while being below to WAY below average at the plate literally every single season, then Andruw Jones should waltz right in.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

.158 in 75 games. He's just NOT getting into the Hall with a .254 lifetime BA IMO, I don't care how many great catches he made or that he had some great power years.

Andruw Jones received 61% of the vote in the last HOF election. No player who has received 50% of the BBWAA vote has not been elected except for steroid guys. Did Jones use steroids? With only Billy Wagner ahead of him and in his 10th year on the ballot, Jones has 3 more tries. Most likely he is elected in the next 3 years.

[darwinbulldog]

Any predictions of who may appear on the 2027 ballot?

[lumberjack]

For a while, Don Mattingly WAS Lou Gehrig, but his body broke down. Even a hurt Don Mattingly could still play, but....The Hall is about longevity (otherwise Bird Fidrych, Pete Reiser and Joe Wood may have made it in.

Cracker Schalk, as a catcher, recorded a putout at every based and averaged
100 assists a year (or one per game played, if you like), during his career. This is inconceivable in modern baseball. My point here bein', you can't compare areas.

Maz could turn a DP in his sleep (and, yes, he probably disrupted Ralph Terry's sleep as well). The DP part is what he got paid for and what got him to Cooperstown.

Killebrew, I never really got, but he hit homers and he did it well, which is exactly what they asked of him.

I stand corrected on Dick Allen being a questionable team player, but in his prime years he never lasted long in any one city. Every time he was traded, it was for players of lesser value (Tommy John is no exception as he hadn't pitched winning baseball for years, McCarver was past his prime and Willie Montanez had a total of two official MLB at bats).

Was Dick Allen really hated that much by front offices?

There are examples of guys who could play, but couldn't stick anywhere. Not many examples, but there are a few. Hornsby, top of the list, Alex Johnson, Billy Martin, even Lou Novikoff (MLB actually used a guy with one arm rather than give a contract to Lou Novikoff.

[clydepepper]

Even though he didn't want it if he wasn't around, Luis Tiant, Jr. should have gotten in.


Sorry they let you down Luis.


.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

Andruw Jones received 61% of the vote in the last HOF election. No player who has received 50% of the BBWAA vote has not been elected except for steroid guys. Did Jones use steroids? With only Billy Wagner ahead of him and in his 10th year on the ballot, Jones has 3 more tries. Most likely he is elected in the next 3 years.

To my knowledge Jones was not associated with steroids.

[packs]

Nellie Fox did eventually get in through the Veteran's Committee but per BR he received 61% in his penultimate year on the ballot and then an incredible 74.7% on his final ballot.

He was then elected by the veterans 12 years later.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Do we know why Jones just imploded at age 30? Other than his BA being a little on the low side, he had strong offensive numbers to that point to go along with the defense.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Any predictions of who may appear on the 2027 ballot?

Buster Posey and Jon Lester are the strongest candidates. In 2026 it is Ryan Braun and Cole Hamels. Jones strongest competition from returning candidates are Carlos Beltan and CC Sabathia if they don't get in this year. I can see two 2 player classes of Jones, Sabathia, Beltran and Posey for 2026 and 2027.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by lumberjack

For a while, Don Mattingly WAS Lou Gehrig, but his body broke down.

Wow, sounds like a real bad break for [checks notes] Don Mattingly?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

Buster Posey and Jon Lester are the strongest candidates. In 2026 it is Ryan Braun and Cole Hamels. Jones strongest competition from returning candidates are Carlos Beltan and CC Sabathia if they don't get in this year. I can see two 2 player classes of Jones, Sabathia, Beltran and Posey for 2026 and 2027.

I don't see Lester, Braun or Hamels as HOFers off the top of my head. The other three should make it, and I suppose Jones might get over the top as well especially with not strong competition.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by rats60

Buster Posey and Jon Lester are the strongest candidates. In 2026 it is Ryan Braun and Cole Hamels. Jones strongest competition from returning candidates are Carlos Beltan and CC Sabathia if they don't get in this year. I can see two 2 player classes of Jones, Sabathia, Beltran and Posey for 2026 and 2027.

I was thinking more like Luis Tiant and Rick Reuschel, but yeah, I guess Cole Hamels et al. will also be on a 2027 ballot.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I was thinking more like Luis Tiant and Rick Reuschel, but yeah, I guess Cole Hamels et al. will also be on a 2027 ballot.

Tiant may end up being Thurman Munson and Steve Garvey, just destined not to make it? I think Reuschel has a Bobby Grich problem -- yeah, we see your WAR and it easily qualifies you, but we just don't think you were all that great.

[egri]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't see Lester, Braun or Hamels as HOFers off the top of my head. The other three should make it, and I suppose Jones might get over the top as well especially with not strong competition.

I think Lester has a stronger Veteran's Committee case (or whatever they're calling it nowadays). We're not going to see another 200-game winner for a while, and has a strong narrative; cancer wipes out half his rookie year, he comes back to win the World Series the following year, then throws a no-hitter the year after, and later was a part of the 2013 team that won after the Boston Marathon bombing, then goes to Chicago and helps them win.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by egri

I think Lester has a stronger Veteran's Committee case (or whatever they're calling it nowadays). We're not going to see another 200-game winner for a while, and has a strong narrative; cancer wipes out half his rookie year, he comes back to win the World Series the following year, then throws a no-hitter the year after, and later was a part of the 2013 team that won after the Boston Marathon bombing, then goes to Chicago and helps them win.

Wainwright also won exactly 200. Not sure he feels like a HOFer to me either, but maybe.