Most undervalued HOFers

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by timn1

I think everybody recognizes his uniqueness - I certainly do. And that's the basis of his appeal to collectors. I've never disputed any of that. But as you acknowledge, that doesn't necessarily equate to greatness, and my comments have been intended to maintain that distinction rather than letting it get blurred.



Just FYI, here are some of the team records of Ryan and his contemporaries.



Ryan's teams with his decisions: 2062-2010.5064

without his decisions 1738-1718.5029

He improved his teams' Win PCT by .0035



Carlton's teams with his decisions: 1789-1578.5313

without his decisions 1460-1334.5225

He improved his teams' Win PCT by .0078



Jenkins's teams with his decisions: 1441-1405.5063

without his decisions 1157-1179.4952

He improved his teams' Win PCT by .0110



Palmer's teams with his decisions: 1756-1242.5857

without his decisions 1488-1090.5772

He improved his teams' Win PCT by .0085



Seaver's teams with his decisions: 1592-1584.5013

without his decisions 1281-1379.4816

He improved his teams' Win PCT by .0197



Blyleven's teams with his decisions: 1592-1584.5013

without his decisions 1281-1379.4816

He improved his teams' Win PCT by .0197



Sutton's teams with his decisions: 1918-1662.5358

without his decisions 1594-1406.5313

He improved his teams' Win PCT by .0045



3242560.559

That is a really useless way to evaluate a pitcher's value to a team. Actually, it's more useless than wins, which is also a useless stat.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Unique? Yes. Seven no hitters and all-time K record? Sorry, that equates to greatness. No amount of stats or words will change that.

Yes, there are other pitchers who are great for different reasons than why Ryan was legendary.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I guess I just don't understand why it's meaningful to measure a pitcher in this way. A decent pitcher would probably improve a terrible team's winning percentage more than a great pitcher would improve a great team's percentage. For example. And I would bet there are all sorts of confounding variables too.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Yes! Ultimately, everyone wants the win, but it's certainly not solely on the shoulders of any one player to achieve that. The pitcher may get credit for the decision, but there are lots of other players and factors that determine the outcome. Therefore, I will never solely be transfixed with W-L.

Every manager wants strikeouts from his pitchers. While there are other obvious requests, "Get that guy out" has to be the big one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Yes! Ultimately, everyone wants the win, but it's certainly not solely on the shoulders of any one player to achieve that. The pitcher may get credit for the decision, but there are lots of other players and factors that determine the outcome. Therefore, I will never solely be transfixed with W-L.

Every manager wants strikeouts from his pitchers. While there are other obvious requests, "Get that guy out" has to be the big one.

Yep. A win or a loss depend half on how good the pitcher was, half on how much run support he got. Thus, people win Cy Youngs with mediocre W-L records. IIRC Ryan himself had a season where he lost twice as many as he won, but led the league in ERA.

[robw1959]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yep. A win or a loss depend half on how good the pitcher was, half on how much run support he got. Thus, people win Cy Youngs with mediocre W-L records. IIRC Ryan himself had a season where he lost twice as many as he won, but led the league in ERA.

Maybe the pitching factor is only one-third of a team's success; the other two-thirds being hitting and defense. Defense is a very underrated factor of success in baseball.

[Kutcher55]

Wasn't Gaylord Perry a blatant cheater who once got caught with a tub of vaseline inside his baseball cap? And you're comparing him to the Ryan express? Guy, guy, c'mon guy.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Unique? Yes. Seven no hitters and all-time K record? Sorry, that equates to greatness. No amount of stats or words will change that.

Yes, there are other pitchers who are great for different reasons than why Ryan was legendary.

It's individual greatness. Which is fine; my contention with the Ryan worship is how so many people want to ignore wins, winning percentage, ERA, WHIP, FIP, and virtually every other pitching statistic at which his contemporaries (Seaver, Palmer, et al.) almost ALL were better at than Ryan. It's just ignoring a large part of what people think pitching is.