Two hour interview with.... Bill Mastro

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by G1911

I’ve cracked a couple thousand or so. For me, it’s because the card might not be available raw. In my little realm I might have to wait a few years or just never get a card if I’m picky about the container it ships in. Most people grade the decent stuff, so a lot of my scarcer material was put into my collection via cracking the slab open. If I’m looking for a poor grade T206 Mathewson, I’ll just get a raw one, but if I want a card that has ~10 copies known, it doesn’t make sense to be picky. Buy it and crack it.

That makes sense for scarce examples, but a majority of postwar cards are plentiful in raw form.

[campyfan39]

Fair question.
It's very difficult to buy ungraded star cards in decent condition because dealers with nice cards price them at graded prices or higher (because everyone thinks their cards are better than they are).
I can't stand paying for the grade, but it is what the hobby has deteriorated to. That is why I have not bought much in 2024.

Originally Posted by 4815162342

But, why are you buying graded just to crack them out? If you don’t like graded cards, why not just buy raw?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by G1911

I’ve cracked a couple thousand or so. For me, it’s because the card might not be available raw. In my little realm I might have to wait a few years or just never get a card if I’m picky about the container it ships in. Most people grade the decent stuff, so a lot of my scarcer material was put into my collection via cracking the slab open. If I’m looking for a poor grade T206 Mathewson, I’ll just get a raw one, but if I want a card that has ~10 copies known, it doesn’t make sense to be picky. Buy it and crack it.

Always knew you were a scammer. Thanks for confirming. FRAUDSTER!

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Always knew you were a scammer. Thanks for confirming. FRAUDSTER!

Are you drunk or just mentally disabled like normal? Breaking a PSA slab and putting a card into my binder set is not fraud. There’s not even a transaction, who am I defrauding when I put a card into my personal set? The irony of you calling anyone a fraudster, considering you are a barely concealed one if even barely at all, is quite amusing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Maybe when you think fraud is not fraud, you think not fraud is fraud?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maybe when you think fraud is not fraud, you think not fraud is fraud?

I would absolutely love if anyone can articulate a reasonable, logical position using words as they actually exist and are widely used in the hobby and the English language instead of bullshit fantasy definitions morons have made up to mean the complete opposite of what they actually mean and undermine the entire point of a language existing, how this is fraud. Here's a specific example like I was talking about, using the box on my desk.

I bought this piece in an SGC slab. For proof, here is the unique card in its original slab: https://sports.ha.com/itm/boxing-car...a/7120-81299.s. I bought it as a complement to my master set build, as a unique 1 of a kind card supplement. Buying it raw is not an option, as this is the only Slavin/Hall partial strip that is known to exist. As I'm keeping it with my Mayo set, I broke it out of the slab. It lives in a cardboard box with my other 19th century pugilists. How have I committed fraud by doing this? Who have I defrauded? Who is the victim? If not criminal fraud but still ethically wrong, how was it wrong to do this? Can we get above a 60 IQ here?

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maybe when you think fraud is not fraud, you think not fraud is fraud?

This is all just a bad AI hallucination...

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I feel like I’ve just taken crazy pills and somehow no one recalls who and what Bill Mastro is.

Ditto. People: Bill - Mastro - Is - A - Crook!

[JollyElm]

Mastroenteritis
The mental and bodily agita making you want to puke that comes each time you encounter someone pretending Bill Mastro isn’t what he is, an out-and-out crook.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Mastroenteritis
The mental and bodily agita making you want to puke that comes each time you encounter someone pretending Bill Mastro isn’t what he is, an out-and-out crook.

Mastrophilia -- strong feelings of love for Mastro causing people to ignore or downplay his record.

[tycobb]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Mastroenteritis
The mental and bodily agita making you want to puke that comes each time you encounter someone pretending Bill Mastro isn’t what he is, an out-and-out crook.

Indeed


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[tycobb]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mastrophilia -- strong feelings of love for Mastro causing people to ignore or downplay his record.

+1


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[tycobb]

BM - “The card it it looks like a football “



sorry if the image appears a lil bit Crook-ed


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[perezfan]

Originally Posted by tycobb

BM - “The card it it looks like a football “



sorry if the image appears a lil bit Crook-ed

Speaking of former football shaped cards and being Crook-ed, don't forget our good friends at PSA.

[tycobb]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Speaking of former football shaped cards and being Crook-ed, don't forget our good friends at PSA.

Ah yes how could we forget the folks over at

Petty Suspicious Authenticators aka Professionally Suspicious Authenticators


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[CurtisFlood]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

For a hobby history board (or at least how we are sometimes) please don't skip to the 1 hour 6 minute point. Listen to the whole first hour because there is a TON of hobby history talked about by a person with first hand experience.

In fact, at some point I'd love to hear more about Bill's adventures at the early 1970s shows before any of us really knew about the hobby.

In other words, listen to the whole darned interview.

Rich

Rich, he stopped by my table at the National in Chicago one year and spoke with me for several minutes. I told him who I was and he told me he was Bill Mastro. When I told him I had heard of him, he said likely it was not in a good way. Anyway, he was pretty good to talk to, but I wish I had asked him more about his early years, though I never pressed him about his demise. Think I told him most people believe in second chances or something to that effect.

[Johnny630]

Here is an interesting one $2,060 sold for last night...for a PSA 3

100% bank on this card being cracked worked wrinkle and crease removed boom 8 holder. Happens all the time with zero disclosure....it's sad but true.

If you have a great looking eye appeal card with something minor and a auction house lists and documents the write up as such you will do very well. This auction proves that.

https://collectauctions.net/1957_Top...LOT56423.aspx#

[Hankphenom]

I hope Bill is working on a book, and telling it straight; the good, the bad, and the ugly. I can't think of anyone who has experienced more of the hobby's history firsthand, not to mention how much of it he made himself, it would have to be a fascinating read.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Here is an interesting one $2,060 sold for last night...for a PSA 3

100% bank on this card being cracked worked wrinkle and crease removed boom 8 holder. Happens all the time with zero disclosure....it's sad but true.

If you have a great looking eye appeal card with something minor and a auction house lists and documents the write up as such you will do very well. This auction proves that.

https://collectauctions.net/1957_Top...LOT56423.aspx#

Little doubt one of our heroes bought that one.

[tjisonline]

Yes, this card has excellent eye appeal.

Look at the bottom of the card (edge & corners - both sides). That’s why it was graded a 3. If anything, the auction description was overly positive to the point of being laughable. PSA allows a minor crease for 4s. I’m sure whoever bought this card will get quite a surprise in-hand if purchased solely for thinking a PSA 5.5 is possible let alone an 8.

Now the question I have is if the PSA grader even cross-referenced this card while grading to their own standards. Who knows anymore as I think it’s an easy 4 on a bad day.

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Here is an interesting one $2,060 sold for last night...for a PSA 3

100% bank on this card being cracked worked wrinkle and crease removed boom 8 holder. Happens all the time with zero disclosure....it's sad but true.

If you have a great looking eye appeal card with something minor and a auction house lists and documents the write up as such you will do very well. This auction proves that.

https://collectauctions.net/1957_Top...LOT56423.aspx#

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by tjisonline

Yes, this card has excellent eye appeal.

Look at the bottom of the card (edge & corners - both sides). That’s why it was graded a 3. If anything, the auction description was overly positive to the point of being laughable. PSA allows a minor crease for 4s. I’m sure whoever bought this card will get quite a surprise in-hand if purchased solely for thinking a PSA 5.5 is possible let alone an 8.

Now the question I have is if the PSA grader even cross-referenced this card while grading to their own standards. Who knows anymore as I think it’s an easy 4 on a bad day.

My point was the cards final price of $2,060 was that much for a PSA 3 because the card is going to be "worked" aka massaged on the back to get wrinkle out for a 8. They are not paying $2,060 to crack, send as is and try again for a 4 or 4.5. Not a chance.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

My point was the cards final price of $2,060 was that much for a PSA 3 because the card is going to be "worked" aka massaged on the back to get wrinkle out for a 8. They are not paying $2,060 to crack, send as is and try again for a 4 or 4.5. Not a chance.

Isn’t this where that fancy database and AI are supposed to kick in to identify cards that have been previously submitted and now cracked out and altered to get a better grade this time?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by raulus

Isn’t this where that fancy database and AI are supposed to kick in to identify cards that have been previously submitted and now cracked out and altered to get a better grade this time?

I have no clue maybe don't know.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

My point was the cards final price of $2,060 was that much for a PSA 3 because the card is going to be "worked" aka massaged on the back to get wrinkle out for a 8. They are not paying $2,060 to crack, send as is and try again for a 4 or 4.5. Not a chance.

Yep. I encounter cards like this all the time. People often think these are examples of shill bidding or fake sales, but they're usually cards that buyers think are either under-graded or can be improved. The market values card by their potential, not by their current state. Although in most cases, these values are equivalent.

Originally Posted by raulus

Isn’t this where that fancy database and AI are supposed to kick in to identify cards that have been previously submitted and now cracked out and altered to get a better grade this time?

LOL

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

My point was the cards final price of $2,060 was that much for a PSA 3 because the card is going to be "worked" aka massaged on the back to get wrinkle out for a 8. They are not paying $2,060 to crack, send as is and try again for a 4 or 4.5. Not a chance.

No way the card is an 8 after the wrinkle is taken out. Has corner wear most evident from the back but can be seen from the front. The lower right corner from the back has a bend which they will have to work some magic on. There is also some surface issues on the right side of his face...mostly in the hat. Very nice 3 but it is going to need a full makeover for an 8.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

No way the card is an 8 after the wrinkle is taken out. Has corner wear most evident from the back but can be seen from the front. The lower right corner from the back has a bend which they will have to work some magic on. There is also some surface issues on the right side of his face...mostly in the hat. Very nice 3 but it is going to need a full makeover for an 8.

Some buyer has confidence in his skills.

[tjisonline]

100%. Upon inspection, the flaws w/ this card stand out.
Whoever spent $2k, I wish them good luck. That is “near mint” price territory

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

No way the card is an 8 after the wrinkle is taken out. Has corner wear most evident from the back but can be seen from the front. The lower right corner from the back has a bend which they will have to work some magic on. There is also some surface issues on the right side of his face...mostly in the hat. Very nice 3 but it is going to need a full makeover for an 8.

[Beercan collector]

.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by tjisonline

100%. Upon inspection, the flaws w/ this card stand out.
Whoever spent $2k, I wish them good luck. That is “near mint” price territory

Far too much of an undertaking, from what I see. I think they can get more bang for their buck finding other candidates. Even if they trim it and take out the wrinkles making it appear NM-MT, if they do nothing with the surface issue on the right side, it is a 6 at best.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Some buyer has confidence in his skills.

That will change here in about 3 months when he gets this one back from PSA

[MikeGarcia]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Far too much of an undertaking, from what I see. I think they can get more bang for their buck finding other candidates. Even if they trim it and take out the wrinkles making it appear NM-MT, if they do nothing with the surface issue on the right side, it is a 6 at best.

.. He may be a gambler on this particular one , but that card has a mesmerizing effect on many fans of him and that fourth series from that groundbreaking '57 set. Not me though. I just collect flips .

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Snowman

… The market values card by their potential, not by their current state. ….

This might possibly be the most revolting sentence I have read on this board.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

This might possibly be the most revolting sentence I have read on this board.

Or the most revealing.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

This might possibly be the most revolting sentence I have read on this board.

He is just telling you the reality of the business. We might not like it but it’s the truth and I except it…this has all made our collections worth more.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

He is just telling you the reality of the business. We might not like it but it’s the truth and I except it…this has all made our collections worth more.

C'mon now. How many of us over the years have bought cards because of the possible expectation that they are or will be worth more than we paid for them.

Rich

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

C'mon now. How many of us over the years have bought cards because of the possible expectation that they are or will be worth more than we paid for them.

Rich

Ummm...That is not what Travis was referring to in his comment. You might want to read what he posted again. And he is spot on in his assessment.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

C'mon now. How many of us over the years have bought cards because of the possible expectation that they are or will be worth more than we paid for them.

Rich

Perfect example of:

“Buy the card, not the holder!!”

[samosa4u]

Alright, I finally finished watching this video. It's definitely not what I call an interview! In an interview, you ask questions and then shut up and listen! This was more like a conversation. It kinda' felt like I was watching a late night talk show, where the host will talk just as much as the person he is interviewing. Over all, I enjoyed it. But yes, I wanted to smack Brian Gray a few times!

I do agree with Hank that Mastro should be writing a book about his time in the hobby. He met so many big guys and made so many big deals before this whole Wagner thing. He even said that his grandma found a Wagner! So, it would definitely be a great read!

[bdk1976]

defendant MASTRO had altered the baseball card by cutting the sides of the card
in a manner that, if disclosed, would have significantly reduced the value of the card.

Is this really the case with this specific card? What would the value of the card be if it had not been trimmed?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bdk1976

Is this really the case with this specific card? What would the value of the card be if it had not been trimmed?

It would be worth much less now if Mastro had not touched it, it would just be a nice sheet cut (AUTHENTIC) but still rare Wagner. But keep in mind it's the notoriety of the card driving its extreme value (IMO), not that anyone thinks it's a real pack-issued 8.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It would be worth much less now if Mastro had not touched it, it would just be a nice sheet cut (AUTHENTIC) but still rare Wagner. But keep in mind it's the notoriety of the card driving its extreme value (IMO), not that anyone thinks it's a real pack-issued 8.

Here's my conspiracy hypothetical. I think there is a near-zero chance that it would have survived as a sheet to this day had those guys not cut it up prior to selling it to Mastro. Even if it had come to market as a sheet in a large public auction, someone would have cut it out. My guess is that arrangements would have been made by someone with connections to have it cut "professionally" and then PSA would have agreed to slab it with a numeric grade but would put "Hand Cut" on the label. So it still would be a PSA 8 but just designated "Hand Cut" lol.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

C'mon now. How many of us over the years have bought cards because of the possible expectation that they are or will be worth more than we paid for them.

Rich

I'm not saying that cards are worth their potential to you or to any other specific buyer. I'm saying that the market values them at their potential.

Obviously, to the vast majority of buyers, cards are only worth whatever their current state suggests because most buyers aren't looking to improve cards. But even if just 1% of the bidders in an auction are looking for cards to improve, that would be enough for those improveable cards to be sold at their potential, as opposed to at whatever their current state suggests.

A very common example of this fact is that every time you see a 1986 Fleer Sticker Michael Jordan card listed at auction with the (ST) qualifier, because it has wax on the back, it always sells for much more money than its grade suggests it should be worth. A PSA 8 (ST) is going to sell for something close to what a PSA 8 without the qualifier would go for. Recently, PSA stopped adding the qualifiers, so you'll find them as straight PSA 6s instead, but the effect is the same. These will sell closer to what PSA 7s and 8s go for than they will what PSA 6s sell for. The reason is obvious. It's because the buyers know they can crack the cards out, wipe off the wax from the back with a pair of pantyhose and resubmit it for a higher grade. The same is true for any card with improvable flaws, whatever those may be. It is what it is. But it's definitely true whether we like it or not. In the limit, all cards that can be improved will be improved. It's inescapable.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Ditto. People: Bill - Mastro - Is - A - Crook!

Just ask Doug Allen.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Alright, I finally finished watching this video. It's definitely not what I call an interview! In an interview, you ask questions and then shut up and listen! This was more like a conversation. It kinda' felt like I was watching a late night talk show, where the host will talk just as much as the person he is interviewing. Over all, I enjoyed it. But yes, I wanted to smack Brian Gray a few times!

I do agree with Hank that Mastro should be writing a book about his time in the hobby. He met so many big guys and made so many big deals before this whole Wagner thing. He even said that his grandma found a Wagner! So, it would definitely be a great read!

And his Grandmother wears paratrooper boots.

[TheSportsTrader1964]

Bill Mastro was a frequent advertiser in my monthly sports collector's journal: The Sports Trader, along about years 1968 and 1969. I never received a single complaint on his dealings with collectors at that time. I think he was very young at the time.