Two hour interview with.... Bill Mastro

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://youtu.be/Omp0P5kJ9Cs?si=qh--N2f3hoLvhui5

Wagner discussion, I am told, at 1:06

[Fred]

I have to admit, I went straight to 1:06. It's interesting.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The Wagner is sheet cut. It was never better than an AUTH. It should be in an AUTH now because it's sheet cut, not because it was subsequently trimmed. The focus of this story has been wrong all along IMO.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The Wagner is sheet cut. It was never better than an AUTH. It should be in an AUTH now because it's sheet cut, not because it was subsequently trimmed. The focus of this story has been wrong all along IMO.

Exactly.

And PSA, complicit in the skulduggery from the word go - knew it was sheet cut and gave it an 8 anyway.

What a fine opening chapter for the attitudes on grading and tone of things we find today.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Exactly.

And PSA, complicit in the skulduggery from the word go - knew it was sheet cut and gave it an 8 anyway.

What a fine opening chapter for the attitudes on grading and tone of things we find today.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah, the common understanding seems to be that Mastro took a lower grade card and trimmed it into a higher grade one, and PSA missed or overlooked the trimming. Thus, all the emphasis has been on the trimming. Not really accurate.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah, the common understanding seems to be that Mastro took a lower grade card and trimmed it into a higher grade one, and PSA missed or overlooked the trimming. Thus, all the emphasis has been on the trimming. Not really accurate.

Right.

The problem seems to be in Mastro’s insistence that he didn’t hide it (the fact it was cut) from anyone, vs. the stories that started circulating after Gretzky and McNall bought the card and PSA graded it.

You can kind of see Mastro’s side of the story though. At the time he cut it from the sheet or the “oblong football” of a card he bought, there were no grading companies. Even after PSA graded the card in 1992 or whenever, there still was not this widespread focus on the deceptive practice of trimming, what a certain type of card should or should not measure to up to 1/72 of an inch - and things like that. Mastro likely wasn’t asked much about the circumstances in which he acquired the card and what he did with it before selling it to Jim Copeland in the late 80’s. There was not this cloud of eternal suspicion over things like that, as we have today with just about anything in a slab that is vintage that appears perfect or near perfect to the naked eye.


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[campyfan39]

PSA and grading were all about money and nothing about the hobby from the get-go. Yet people still give them business and clamor for even one grade more.

People buying commons for 1,000's just to participate in the pecker contest known as the registry are the biggest marks ever. Yeah, they may make money and have bragging rights, but the original graders must be laughing their asses off somewhere.

I know I have done my part as I have freed 1500+ from their plastic prisons, even some big boys. If more would do that, the pop reports would become even more meaningless and inaccurate.

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Exactly.

And PSA, complicit in the skulduggery from the word go - knew it was sheet cut and gave it an 8 anyway.

What a fine opening chapter for the attitudes on grading and tone of things we find today.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by campyfan39

PSA and grading were all about money and nothing about the hobby from the get-go. Yet people still give them business and clamor for even one grade more.

People buying commons for 1,000's just to participate in the pecker contest known as the registry are the biggest marks ever. Yeah, they may make money and have bragging rights, but the original graders must be laughing their asses off somewhere.

I know I have done my part as I have freed 1500+ from their plastic prisons, even some big boys. If more would do that, the pop reports would become even more meaningless and inaccurate.

But, why are you buying graded just to crack them out? If you don’t like graded cards, why not just buy raw?

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The Wagner is sheet cut. It was never better than an AUTH. It should be in an AUTH now because it's sheet cut, not because it was subsequently trimmed. The focus of this story has been wrong all along IMO.

Aren’t most cards sheet cut? The argument is who cut it, no?

What if it was cut using the same cutters as the day it was printed only 90yrs later?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Aren’t most cards sheet cut? The argument is who cut it, no?

What if it was cut using the same cutters as the day it was printed only 90yrs later?

Yes, if it's cut by the factory and issued as a single that is different from an individual cutting it from a sheet or strip. You can obviously do a Socratic method on it, but the hobby distinguishes.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes, if it's cut by the factory and issued as a single that is different from an individual cutting it from a sheet or strip. You can obviously do a Socratic method on it, but the hobby distinguishes.

Or at least the hobby wishes to distinguish. The fundamental problem though is that the hobby in fact cannot distinguish.

[4815162342]

Thanks for posting this, Peter. It was entertaining to say the least.

An actual quote from later in the video: “If you cannot detect the alteration, okay, in any way, shape, or form, is it altered?”

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

An actual quote from later in the video: “If you cannot detect the alteration, okay, in any way, shape, or form, is it altered?”

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

[Leon]

Yes.
There is no alternate reality in my world.
And if a card is altered and no one detects it, it's still altered. And I fully understand that is not the way it is in the hobby for many, if not most.

Originally Posted by nwobhm

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

[Donscards]

I enjoyed listening to the program--I stated selling cards in 1977-78--but I met Mastro years ago, we were not buddies--but I knew him--but listening to him, I enjoyed it and his love for the hobby--The other guy drove me crazy budding in all the time--I really wanted to hear Mastro with his story. Thanks for the listing Peter.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Donscards

I enjoyed listening to the program--I stated selling cards in 1977-78--but I met Mastro years ago, we were not buddies--but I knew him--but listening to him, I enjoyed it and his love for the hobby--The other guy drove me crazy budding in all the time--I really wanted to hear Mastro with his story. Thanks for the listing Peter.

Yeah, the guy who conducted the interview was tripping over himself interrupting and making irrelevant comments about his own experiences. I wished for a large part of the middle section that he would just shut up.

But all in all, worth listening to for Bill’s perspective. If that guy made it happen, then more power to him.


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[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Leon

Yes.
There is no alternate reality in my world.
And if a card is altered and no one detects it, it's still altered. And I fully understand that is not the way it is in the hobby for many, if not most.

So what you are saying is that there just may be no way to know whether or not many cards are altered. Even if we suspect they aren’t, and reside in numbered PSA slabs.


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[Leon]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

So what you are saying is that there just may be no way to know whether or not many cards are altered. Even if we suspect they aren’t, and reside in numbered PSA slabs.


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Sure. I think some trimming can't be detected. But what I was saying is, it's still trimmed.
For the record, Bill Hughes, who actually graded the card, said it was an 8 to him and he didn't know a backstory. That's what he's told me.
I enjoyed the interview. Thanks for posting it, Peter.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Leon

Yes.
There is no alternate reality in my world.
And if a card is altered and no one detects it, it's still altered.

+1

[Fred]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

It aint a tree... Unfortunately, when Mastro farted this one out, everyone has to smell it, and this scent will linger as long as that card is in an 8 holder.

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Aren’t most cards sheet cut? The argument is who cut it, no?

What if it was cut using the same cutters as the day it was printed only 90yrs later?

I guess we could look at it that the "original" cut (per Bill) is that it looked like a football. So that was the "original" cut. When it was cut again, wouldn't that be an alteration to the "original" cut?

It may have been more widely accepted and not considered fraud if there was full disclosure from the beginning, however that would have opened up all cards that are trimmed to have a numeric grade (which seems to be where this hobby is, anyway).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Thanks for posting this, Peter. It was entertaining to say the least.

An actual quote from later in the video: “If you cannot detect the alteration, okay, in any way, shape, or form, is it altered?”

Yes, it is. Stupid point. Next question?

[Zach Wheat]

Listening now, thanks for posting the link

[George]

The Wagner card was trimmed in the back room of a card shop owned by Bob Sevchuck, located on Jerusalem Avenue in Hicksville, Long Island. I used to go there frequently and talk to Bob, who was very knowledgeable about baseball cards. Unfortunately, the Wagner card did not come up.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by George

The Wagner card was trimmed in the back room of a card shop owned by Bob Sevchuck, located on Jerusalem Avenue in Hicksville, Long Island. I used to go there frequently and talk to Bob, who was very knowledgeable about baseball cards. Unfortunately, the Wagner card did not come up.

Right, but I think the question is the origin of the strip from which it was cut?

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Thanks for posting this, Peter. It was entertaining to say the least.

An actual quote from later in the video: “If you cannot detect the alteration, okay, in any way, shape, or form, is it altered?”

This is a ridiculous statement by Bill Mastro trying to justify his bad behavior. It's like saying:

"If I steal something and don't get caught, is it really stealing?"

jeff

[calvindog]

I expect Bill's priest, who he dragged to every court appearance, to pop up here and speak on his behalf.

[tjisonline]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://youtu.be/Omp0P5kJ9Cs?si=qh--N2f3hoLvhui5

Wagner discussion, I am told, at 1:06

Great share.

[parkplace33]

I will watch over the week and I am sure I will report back on my thoughts.

[pbspelly]

is it known where the sheet came from before the Wagner card was cut out of it?

[Touch'EmAll]

How similar to cutting out a particular card from a 1960's Bazooka panel - getting a number grade.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

How similar to cutting out a particular card from a 1960's Bazooka panel - getting a number grade.

I presume because the Bazooka panel was meant to be hand cut and the T206 was not.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by pbspelly

is it known where the sheet came from before the Wagner card was cut out of it?

It was a strip as opposed to a sheet, and someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Long Island?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

It was a strip as opposed to a sheet, and someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Long Island?

IIRC, I have heard different things, one being Long Island, one being that Alan Ray or maybe his father bought it at some obscure venue in Florida.

[Rich Klein]

For a hobby history board (or at least how we are sometimes) please don't skip to the 1 hour 6 minute point. Listen to the whole first hour because there is a TON of hobby history talked about by a person with first hand experience.

In fact, at some point I'd love to hear more about Bill's adventures at the early 1970s shows before any of us really knew about the hobby.

In other words, listen to the whole darned interview.

Rich

[tjisonline]

I feel the same. His recollections mirror what I remember during the early 1980s and more importantly, what other collecting folks before that have said.

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

For a hobby history board (or at least how we are sometimes) please don't skip to the 1 hour 6 minute point. Listen to the whole first hour because there is a TON of hobby history talked about by a person with first hand experience.

In fact, at some point I'd love to hear more about Bill's adventures at the early 1970s shows before any of us really knew about the hobby.

In other words, listen to the whole darned interview.

Rich

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

For a hobby history board (or at least how we are sometimes) please don't skip to the 1 hour 6 minute point. Listen to the whole first hour because there is a TON of hobby history talked about by a person with first hand experience.

In fact, at some point I'd love to hear more about Bill's adventures at the early 1970s shows before any of us really knew about the hobby.

In other words, listen to the whole darned interview.

Rich

Agreed.

I did, and it was fantastic. I had been looking forward to some type of tell-all by Mastro including that story for some time.


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[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Listen to the whole first hour because there is a TON of hobby history talked about by a person with first hand experience.

First hand experience in shilling his own auctions too I hear.

[CurtisFlood]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

For a hobby history board (or at least how we are sometimes) please don't skip to the 1 hour 6 minute point. Listen to the whole first hour because there is a TON of hobby history talked about by a person with first hand experience.

In fact, at some point I'd love to hear more about Bill's adventures at the early 1970s shows before any of us really knew about the hobby.

In other words, listen to the whole darned interview.

Rich

Rich, he stopped by my table at the National in Chicago one year and spoke with me for several minutes. I told him who I was and he told me he was Bill Mastro. When I told him I had heard of him, he said likely it was not in a good way. Anyway, he was pretty good to talk to, but I wish I had asked him more about his early years, though I never pressed him about his demise. Think I told him most people believe in second chances or something to that effect.

[mordecaibrown1]

Growing up in Chicago, as a collector got to know Bill and his workers as I was over to his office many times and they also stopped by my house several times back then.

[drcy]

Employing simple logic: "If a card is trimmed it is trimmed." "If a card is trimmed..." is self-answering.

[Brent G.]

So has this card smashing been going on for a long time or recent phenomenon?

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Brent G.

So has this card smashing been going on for a long time or recent phenomenon?

What do you mean by "card smashing"? Are you referring to all the discussion about how the very first card graded by PSA was subjectively given a NUMERICAL grade?

If so, then the observation is that you've somehow missed out on MANY threads that regurgitate the disgust at PSA for not doing what they were set out to do in the first place. TPGs are supposed to provide an honest unbiased opinion about the condition of a card that's to be slabbed.

The very first card that PSA encapsulated is a fraud. PSA has rejected MANY cards as being altered and has not provided numerical grades to what they determine is a trimmed card.

TPGs are supposed to protect the collecting public from these shams by not encapsulating trimmed cards with NUMERICAL grades. For example, look at the price of a PSA8 T206 common and then look at the price of a trimmed (nice looking) PSA-A graded T206 common. Not to mention a T206 Wagner.

This "hobby" has boiled down to being driven by $$$ based on these grades. Soooooo... go back to the beginning of this semi-rant and you should begin to understand this not a recent phenomenon. The topic of so many trimmed encapsulated cards is also not a new phenomenon.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by Fred

What do you mean by "card smashing"? Are you referring to all the discussion about how the very first card graded by PSA was subjectively given a NUMERICAL grade?



If so, then the observation is that you've somehow missed out on MANY threads that regurgitate the disgust at PSA for not doing what they were set out to do in the first place. TPGs are supposed to provide an honest unbiased opinion about the condition of a card that's to be slabbed.



The very first card that PSA encapsulated is a fraud. PSA has rejected MANY cards as being altered and has not provided numerical grades to what they determine is a trimmed card.



TPGs are supposed to protect the collecting public from these shams by not encapsulating trimmed cards with NUMERICAL grades. For example, look at the price of a PSA8 T206 common and then look at the price of a trimmed (nice looking) PSA-A graded T206 common. Not to mention a T206 Wagner.



This "hobby" has boiled down to being driven by $$$ based on these grades. Soooooo... go back to the beginning of this semi-rant and you should begin to understand this not a recent phenomenon. The topic of so many trimmed encapsulated cards is also not a new phenomenon.

I believe he was referring to the discussion in the video about pressing cards to make them oversized so they can be trimmed without measuring small.

[OhioLawyerF5]

As a lawyer in the hobby, snowman, you don't know what you are talking about. The facts supporting the charge are listed in the indictment. If he ultimately pled guilty to the charge, unless part of the plea deal was to amend the indictment by removing those specific facts, a plea of guilty is a complete admission to the facts alleged in the indictment. Thus, that plea of guilty results in a conviction on the charge, and a finding of facts as alleged in the count that was pled guilty to, even if those facts constitute a small part of the scheme that made up the charge.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

As a lawyer in the hobby, snowman, you don't know what you are talking about. The facts supporting the charge are listed in the indictment. If he ultimately pled guilty to the charge, unless part of the plea deal was to amend the indictment by removing those specific facts, a plea of guilty is a complete admission to the facts alleged in the indictment. Thus, that plea of guilty results in a conviction on the charge, and a finding of facts as alleged in the count that was pled guilty to, even if those facts constitute a small part of the scheme that made up the charge.

It's even beyond that because in his filings he specifically admitted to those facts.

[calvindog]

Where’s Dmitri Young these days?

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's even beyond that because in his filings he specifically admitted to those facts.

That's fine, but what matters as to what he's convicted of is what's said at the plea hearing (and in the indictment). He can admit to anything he wants in filings, but if he doesn't enter a plea on the count containing those facts, he's not convicted of those facts.

I'm not digging into his plea, because frankly I don't care. I was just correcting smowman's misstatements about the law. If he pled to the count of the indictment containing those facts, he's guilty of those facts. Period.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

That's fine, but what matters as to what he's convicted of is what's said at the plea hearing (and in the indictment). He can admit to anything he wants in filings, but if he doesn't enter a plea on the count containing those facts, he's not convicted of those facts.

Yes of course. I was just making a belt and suspenders point. In any event, neither of us apparently knows anything, per Travis.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes of course. I was just making a belt and suspenders point. In any event, neither of us apparently knows anything, per Travis.

You guys can keep dancing around this all you want. You can argue semantics or say I'm misusing terms or "moving the goalposts" or whatever you want. I don't care. My main point has been quite clear from the beginning of this conversation (which started elsewhere, years ago and which Peter just can't seem to let go of for some strange reason). My point is and always has been that nobody, including Mastro, has ever been "tried and convicted?", "charged and convicted?", "tried by a jury?", "found guilty by a judge?" for the "crime" (or however the hell you want to word it) of altering and selling a sports card. It hasn't happened. And you pointing to the fact that it was mentioned in a lengthy indictment full of other crimes for which he could not escape in a case that didn't go to trial because he struck a plea deal doesn't mean he would have been found guilty of that charge by a judge or a jury. It just doesn't. I get that in the "logic" of lawyer-land, you guys all think a "conviction" by plea deal is equivalent to a conviction by a jury, because "Yay! I won my case!", but it doesn't make it true. HE WAS NEVER TRIED ON THE CHARGE OF ALTERING/SELLING THAT WAGNER. Not by a jury. Not by the standard that matters with respect to what I've been arguing now for years.

Why would this distinction matter? Again, not a lawyer here, but I'd wager my left nut that a plea deal does not set a precedent for jack shit with respect to future cases for precisely the reasons I'm alluding to (and likely many others).

[OhioLawyerF5]

People can think what they want, but I'm a prosecutor. And make no mistake, trimming a card to deceive a buyer into paying more for it will be charged as theft by decpetion every time in my jurisdiction as well criminal simulation. And if you do it as a business model, I will charge with engaging in a pattern of corrupt activity as well (which is a high-level felony in Ohio).

Look up criminal simulation in Ohio. It is RC 2913.32. It describes precisely what trimming a card to deceive is.