Most undervalued HOFers

[John1941]

Originally Posted by rats60

Home park makes a huge difference. From 1955-69 when Clemente played in Forbes, there were an average of 86 HR per season hit. Compare that to Hank Aaron's home field advantage. From 1966-68 there were an average of 151 HR per season hit in the "Launching Pad." After the 1968 season, the Braves moved the fences in to help Aaron hit more HRs. From 1969-73, that number jumped to 187 per season. 1n 1974 with Aaron at 713 HRs, the Braves moved the fences back. If Aaron hadn't played in Atlanta, he would be fifth all time in home runs and his cards would be priced similar to Frank Robinson's. Mickey Mantle and Hank Aaron are the most overpriced post-war vintage players.

For his career, Aaron hit 385 homers at home and 370 on the road. 740 home runs would not make you 5th all-time.

[timn1]

Originally Posted by John1941

For his career, Aaron hit 385 homers at home and 370 on the road. 740 home runs would not make you 5th all-time.

Sure, park effects are significant at times but the idea that Aaron is overrated is just nuts to me.

I Think If anything Aaron is way undervalued. One of the ten greatest players of all time, and I would argue one of the top five most important of all time.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by timn1

Sure, park effects are significant at times but the idea that Aaron is overrated is just nuts to me.

I Think If anything Aaron is way undervalued. One of the ten greatest players of all time, and I would argue one of the top five most important of all time.

+1. One could make a credible argument that he was the greatest player of all time -- and had an off the field impact that perhaps rivaled that of Jackie Robinson.

[SAllen2556]

If I were buying for investment I'd buy Willie Mays all day. If anyone can catch Mantle in price, it's him. He's got the numbers, the reputation, and now that he's passed, he can't be rude to fans anymore!

I think with Mantle it's basically because his name is associated with baseball cards. If you consider the hobby and its growth, the '52 Mantle is the starting point. If you ask a non-collector, "What name do you associate most with baseball card collecting?" The answer would be Mickey Mantle.

For pre-war I think players who starred in the 1920's are undervalued because there were no really popular card sets produced. I'd include Harry Heilmann as one of those guys because he doesn't have a T206 or a Goudey card. In fact, I wonder how many hall-of-famers from that era don't have a card in either of those sets? Maybe Heilmann is the only one.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

For pre-war I think players who starred in the 1920's are undervalued because there was no really popular card sets produced then. I'd include Harry Heilmann as one of those guys because he doesn't have a T206 or a Goudey card. In fact, I wonder how many hall-of-famers from that era don't have a card in either of those sets? Maybe Heilmann is the only one.

There are several HOFers where nobody seems to care. Heilmann has always been one of them. Same with someone like Al Simmons. I have never in my life run into a single collector who specializes in either, although you have to imagine they're out there somewhere.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

There are several HOFers where nobody seems to care. Heilmann has always been one of them. Same with someone like Al Simmons. I have never in my life run into a single collector who specializes in either, although you have to imagine they're out there somewhere.

Although he probably rates much higher than either of these two, you don't see a lot of people talking about their Jimmie Foxx cards either.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Although he probably rates much higher than either of these two, you don't see a lot of people talking about their Jimmie Foxx cards either.

Very true. And that's a real head-scratcher to me.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Although he probably rates much higher than either of these two, you don't see a lot of people talking about their Jimmie Foxx cards either.

Had I any Jimmie Foxx cards, I'd be bragging about those every day on this forum. The best I can do though among the vulpine crew is Nellie Fox.

[molenick]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

For pre-war I think players who starred in the 1920's are undervalued because there was no really popular card sets produced then. I'd include Harry Heilmann as one of those guys because he doesn't have a T206 or a Goudey card. In fact, I wonder how many hall-of-famers from that era don't have a card in either of those sets? Maybe Heilmann is the only one.

I once tried to work out who was the best player not to be in any of the classic T and E sets, and also to miss all the 1930s sets, and Alexander was who I came up with. In some measurements, one of the top five pitchers ever, but probably under-collected because of not being in these sets.

However, he did make it into both Cracker Jacks sets, which are technically E cards (even though they are not usually referred to as E145-1 and E145-2) while Heilmann did not.

If you want to limit it to T206 and 1933 Goudey, I imagine there are other HOFers sandwiched between these two...but I have not tried to look for those. Maybe a fun project after work. Some of the "lesser" 1920s HOFers, like "Highpockets" Kelly and Chick Hafey would qualify.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

With that being said, Alex has always been popular among card, autograph and memorabilia collectors. And rightly so!

[molenick]

Here are some other 1920s stars not in T206 or 1933 Goudey: Bancroft, Carey, Coveleski, Harris, Lopez, Roush, Youngs. "Research" consisted of looking at Veteran's Committee selections of the 1960s and 1970s and checking if they had a 1933 Goudey card (some were playing at the time but were not in the set). I'm curious now, so will research more later. I'm guessing Alexander and Heilmann will remain the two best players.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Heilmann was truly incredible; it's so sad to me that he's been forgotten to time. At least some of the lack of value goes back to what I mentioned earlier about Tiger-themed collectors not being very liberal with their hobby budgets.

...and I'm not singling out Tigers collectors on this. There are many teams where this has always been applicable. Red Sox and A's are definitely among the top of such a list, even more so than the Tigers. That would serve to partially explain Foxx (and even Teddy).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by molenick

Here are some other 1920s stars not in T206 or 1933 Goudey: Bancroft, Harris, Lopez, Youngs. "Research" consisted of looking at Veteran's Committee selections of the 1970s and checking if they had a 1933 Goudey card (some were playing at the time but were not in the set). I'm curious now, so will research more later. I'm guessing Alexander and Heilmann will remain the two best players.

Sisler isn't in any mainstream sets, he's probably roughly comparable to Heilmann.

[John1941]

Originally Posted by molenick

I once tried to work out who was the best player not to be in any of the classic T and E sets, and also to miss all the 1930s sets, and Alexander was who I came up with. In some measurements, one of the top five pitchers ever, but probably under-collected because of not being in these sets.

However, he did make it into both Cracker Jacks sets, which are technically E cards (even though they are not usually referred to as E145-1 and E145-2) while Heilmann did not.

If you want to limit it to T206 and 1933 Goudey, I imagine there are other HOFers sandwiched between these two...but I have not tried to look for those. Maybe a fun project after work. Some of the "lesser" 1920s HOFers, like "Highpockets" Kelly and Chick Hafey would qualify.

I'd definitely agree Alexander is underrated - he was better than Mathewson but nowhere near as appreciated.

[packs]

I would say Tris Speaker is probably undervalued too. Tough to find many players of his caliber but I feel like his name is probably unknown to most casual fans who aren't collecting baseball cards. Despite being hugely popular in his own time it didn't seem to carryover to future fans.

He does have some pricey cards but I find him to be one of the more affordable HOFers in many of the sets he's in.

[jchcollins]

My underrated player that is either forgotten or nobody has heard of to begin with is Addie Joss.

Deadball era pitcher, died at age 31 from tubercular meningitis before the 1911 season began. Cleveland Naps, along with Lajoie, Elmer Flick and Cy Young, for a time. Joss's first MLB start was a one-hit shutout in 1902, and then in 1908 he pitched the 2nd perfect game of the modern era against the White Sox. He pitched another no-hitter in 1910. 160-97 on his career, 45 of those wins were shutouts. Won 20 games or more 4x. 2nd lowest career ERA (behind Ed Walsh) at 1.89 - and his career WHIP - the measure of how difficult a pitcher is to get on base off of - is the lowest of all-time at 0.968. (There are only three pitchers all-time with more than 1k innings with a career WHIP under 1 - Joss, Ed Walsh, and Jacob deGrom...) In this respect compared to Nolan Ryan - famously in addition to the no-no's and K's - the most difficult pitcher to get a base hit off of percentage-wise - Ryan's career WHIP is not in the top 300 all-time. When I see fanatic Facebook posts about how Nolan Ryan is apparently the greatest pitcher of all time - I sometimes ask people if they've ever heard of Addie Joss...

You read in multiple places where Joss was comparable to Mathewson or Johnson, he just gets forgotten because he died so young.

I don't know, obviously I wasn't around 120 years ago - but I like the story and the idea of Joss as kind of this mythical, obscure HOF'er. He's got both a portrait and a pitching pose T206, and then what must be the first ever "In Memorium" card that was issued after he died in the T205 set.