Most undervalued HOFers

[SAllen2556]

If I were buying for investment I'd buy Willie Mays all day. If anyone can catch Mantle in price, it's him. He's got the numbers, the reputation, and now that he's passed, he can't be rude to fans anymore!

I think with Mantle it's basically because his name is associated with baseball cards. If you consider the hobby and its growth, the '52 Mantle is the starting point. If you ask a non-collector, "What name do you associate most with baseball card collecting?" The answer would be Mickey Mantle.

For pre-war I think players who starred in the 1920's are undervalued because there were no really popular card sets produced. I'd include Harry Heilmann as one of those guys because he doesn't have a T206 or a Goudey card. In fact, I wonder how many hall-of-famers from that era don't have a card in either of those sets? Maybe Heilmann is the only one.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

For pre-war I think players who starred in the 1920's are undervalued because there was no really popular card sets produced then. I'd include Harry Heilmann as one of those guys because he doesn't have a T206 or a Goudey card. In fact, I wonder how many hall-of-famers from that era don't have a card in either of those sets? Maybe Heilmann is the only one.

There are several HOFers where nobody seems to care. Heilmann has always been one of them. Same with someone like Al Simmons. I have never in my life run into a single collector who specializes in either, although you have to imagine they're out there somewhere.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

There are several HOFers where nobody seems to care. Heilmann has always been one of them. Same with someone like Al Simmons. I have never in my life run into a single collector who specializes in either, although you have to imagine they're out there somewhere.

Although he probably rates much higher than either of these two, you don't see a lot of people talking about their Jimmie Foxx cards either.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Although he probably rates much higher than either of these two, you don't see a lot of people talking about their Jimmie Foxx cards either.

Very true. And that's a real head-scratcher to me.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Although he probably rates much higher than either of these two, you don't see a lot of people talking about their Jimmie Foxx cards either.

Had I any Jimmie Foxx cards, I'd be bragging about those every day on this forum. The best I can do though among the vulpine crew is Nellie Fox.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I would bet that's the first appearance of "vulpine" on this forum.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Yes, we can add it to my record of being the first to use the term "jazz hands" on the forum nearly 20 years ago.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would bet that's the first appearance of "vulpine" on this forum.

For consideration...

Vulpinnacle
The most perfect looking Nellie Fox or Jimmie Foxx card a collector could hope to find.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

For consideration...

Vulpinnacle
The most perfect looking Nellie Fox or Jimmie Foxx card a collector could hope to find.

It's gonna be REAL tough for you to match the genius of Lance ARF-strong.

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would bet that's the first appearance of "vulpine" on this forum.

Never doubt Frank's vocabulary.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showpo...8&postcount=14

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

Never doubt Frank's vocabulary.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showpo...8&postcount=14

Steven, I'm stupefied by your post, and even more dumbfounded if you used the Net54 search engine to discover and "out" my initial "vulpine" reference. My hope was that it would last in perpetuity hidden in the Archives of this forum. Your post nevertheless was kind and I thank you for it.

[G1911]

The primary job of a pitcher is to give up as few runs as possible so that his team has the best job of winning. Ryan was 12% better than the league at this. League average is a real definable thing, unlike a fictional replacement pitcher that was completely made up. This is a poor effectiveness at the primary job of a pitcher in a HOF context. There are a few guys lower, mostly bad selections or big compilers like Sutton.

Of course, Ryan is a deserving HOFer because he pitched a ridiculous number of innings, 12% over league while hurling 5,400 innings adds up to a heck of a valuable career.

The Ryan mythos is based on selective memory of his highlight reel + emotion rather than anything to do with overall effectiveness. Striking out tons of people and then walking in runs doesn't really help a team anymore than a more conventional stat line that adds up to the same run performance. People can value whatever they want, highlight reel guys tend to be more popular than math guys. Math people know Perry and Ryan are pretty similar, and so if one values guys whose measurable overall performance can be had at much lower prices (like the OP question), guys like Gaylord are undervalued (except his 66, my favorite of his cards) and guys like Nolan are overvalued.

[molenick]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

For pre-war I think players who starred in the 1920's are undervalued because there was no really popular card sets produced then. I'd include Harry Heilmann as one of those guys because he doesn't have a T206 or a Goudey card. In fact, I wonder how many hall-of-famers from that era don't have a card in either of those sets? Maybe Heilmann is the only one.

I once tried to work out who was the best player not to be in any of the classic T and E sets, and also to miss all the 1930s sets, and Alexander was who I came up with. In some measurements, one of the top five pitchers ever, but probably under-collected because of not being in these sets.

However, he did make it into both Cracker Jacks sets, which are technically E cards (even though they are not usually referred to as E145-1 and E145-2) while Heilmann did not.

If you want to limit it to T206 and 1933 Goudey, I imagine there are other HOFers sandwiched between these two...but I have not tried to look for those. Maybe a fun project after work. Some of the "lesser" 1920s HOFers, like "Highpockets" Kelly and Chick Hafey would qualify.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

With that being said, Alex has always been popular among card, autograph and memorabilia collectors. And rightly so!

[molenick]

Here are some other 1920s stars not in T206 or 1933 Goudey: Bancroft, Carey, Coveleski, Harris, Lopez, Roush, Youngs. "Research" consisted of looking at Veteran's Committee selections of the 1960s and 1970s and checking if they had a 1933 Goudey card (some were playing at the time but were not in the set). I'm curious now, so will research more later. I'm guessing Alexander and Heilmann will remain the two best players.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Heilmann was truly incredible; it's so sad to me that he's been forgotten to time. At least some of the lack of value goes back to what I mentioned earlier about Tiger-themed collectors not being very liberal with their hobby budgets.

...and I'm not singling out Tigers collectors on this. There are many teams where this has always been applicable. Red Sox and A's are definitely among the top of such a list, even more so than the Tigers. That would serve to partially explain Foxx (and even Teddy).

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Heilmann was truly incredible; it's so sad to me that he's been forgotten to time. At least some of the lack of value goes back to what I mentioned earlier about Tiger-themed collectors not being very liberal with their hobby budgets.

...and I'm not singling out Tigers collectors on this. There are many teams where this has always been applicable. Red Sox and A's are definitely among the top of such a list, even more so than the Tigers. That would serve to partially explain Foxx (and even Teddy).

I'm a huge HH fan and his Collins McCarthy is one of my whales. Good luck finding his Zeenut in decent condition at a sane price.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by molenick

Here are some other 1920s stars not in T206 or 1933 Goudey: Bancroft, Harris, Lopez, Youngs. "Research" consisted of looking at Veteran's Committee selections of the 1970s and checking if they had a 1933 Goudey card (some were playing at the time but were not in the set). I'm curious now, so will research more later. I'm guessing Alexander and Heilmann will remain the two best players.

Sisler isn't in any mainstream sets, he's probably roughly comparable to Heilmann.

[molenick]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Sisler isn't in any mainstream sets, he's probably roughly comparable to Heilmann.

Good one..will add to the list. Thanks.

So far the list of HOFers not in t206 or 1933 Goudey and who played in-between these two sets or were playing at the time but were not included: Alexander, Bancroft, Carey, Coveleski, Hafey, Harris, Heilmann, Kelly, Lombardi, Lopez, Roush, Sisler, Youngs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by molenick

Good one..will add to the list. Thanks.

So far the list of HOFers not in t206 or 1933 Goudey and who played in-between these two sets: Alexander, Bancroft, Carey, Coveleski, Hafey, Harris, Heilmann, Kelly, Lombardi, Lopez, Roush, Sisler, Youngs.

Not a HOFer but Joe Jackson isn't in either set, of course he's in E90-1 (or rather a drawing of someone with his name on the card).

[molenick]

If I don't limit it to HOFers I will never get any work done today!

[John1941]

Originally Posted by molenick

I once tried to work out who was the best player not to be in any of the classic T and E sets, and also to miss all the 1930s sets, and Alexander was who I came up with. In some measurements, one of the top five pitchers ever, but probably under-collected because of not being in these sets.

However, he did make it into both Cracker Jacks sets, which are technically E cards (even though they are not usually referred to as E145-1 and E145-2) while Heilmann did not.

If you want to limit it to T206 and 1933 Goudey, I imagine there are other HOFers sandwiched between these two...but I have not tried to look for those. Maybe a fun project after work. Some of the "lesser" 1920s HOFers, like "Highpockets" Kelly and Chick Hafey would qualify.

I'd definitely agree Alexander is underrated - he was better than Mathewson but nowhere near as appreciated.

[packs]

I would say Tris Speaker is probably undervalued too. Tough to find many players of his caliber but I feel like his name is probably unknown to most casual fans who aren't collecting baseball cards. Despite being hugely popular in his own time it didn't seem to carryover to future fans.

He does have some pricey cards but I find him to be one of the more affordable HOFers in many of the sets he's in.

[jchcollins]

My underrated player that is either forgotten or nobody has heard of to begin with is Addie Joss.

Deadball era pitcher, died at age 31 from tubercular meningitis before the 1911 season began. Cleveland Naps, along with Lajoie, Elmer Flick and Cy Young, for a time. Joss's first MLB start was a one-hit shutout in 1902, and then in 1908 he pitched the 2nd perfect game of the modern era against the White Sox. He pitched another no-hitter in 1910. 160-97 on his career, 45 of those wins were shutouts. Won 20 games or more 4x. 2nd lowest career ERA (behind Ed Walsh) at 1.89 - and his career WHIP - the measure of how difficult a pitcher is to get on base off of - is the lowest of all-time at 0.968. (There are only three pitchers all-time with more than 1k innings with a career WHIP under 1 - Joss, Ed Walsh, and Jacob deGrom...) In this respect compared to Nolan Ryan - famously in addition to the no-no's and K's - the most difficult pitcher to get a base hit off of percentage-wise - Ryan's career WHIP is not in the top 300 all-time. When I see fanatic Facebook posts about how Nolan Ryan is apparently the greatest pitcher of all time - I sometimes ask people if they've ever heard of Addie Joss...

You read in multiple places where Joss was comparable to Mathewson or Johnson, he just gets forgotten because he died so young.

I don't know, obviously I wasn't around 120 years ago - but I like the story and the idea of Joss as kind of this mythical, obscure HOF'er. He's got both a portrait and a pitching pose T206, and then what must be the first ever "In Memorium" card that was issued after he died in the T205 set.