Theft at Philly Show

[ClementeFanOh]

Notfast has joined this miserable little battle. If ever I doubted my stance
in this matter, that doubt is now removed... And for the record, Notsmart,
I haven't claimed that I'm right and everyone else is wrong- that's just more
hyperbole from a tired mind. I have made the point that changes need to
happen at shows to make it harder on thieves, and suggested multiple
changes myself. Predictably, one segment started a 2nd Amendment debate
and ignored the actual thrust of the original post. I hardly think I'm right all
the time; however, I am capable of staying on point. How about you?

Trent King

[Exhibitman]

Trent: no hyperbole or sounding off to hear myself think, just throwing some cold water on the Clint Eastwood control fantasies about guns.

Most people are not capable of handling a gun in a stressful situation, let alone in a crowd. They are not trained and have no experience. The few times I've brandished my gun for self-defense reasons at home I've been scared crapless and not sure if I could have hit the side of a barn cleanly had the sight of a big-ass gun not scared off the miscreants. I was not in a crowd, either. Armed in public in a crowd is not a place for amateurs. If shows allow arms, I am far more afraid of some yahoo with a handgun firing wildly into the crowd than I am of anyone stealing cards at a card show.

The laws on the line between self-defense and criminally culpable homicide are very fine and nuanced, again not a place for amateurs to play sheriff. We covered it in law school and just scraped the surface. Most of the popular 'knowledge' about it is folktales. As someone else noted, you can't just shoot someone who stole something, nor are the 'stand your ground' laws in the states that have them as absolute as the fantasists claim.

Now, taking on the topic of show security: I have promoted shows, set up at them, and attended them for nearly 50 years. I was asked into a group that wanted to run shows in LA and I opted not to join because of my concerns about security. It is just a matter of time before the sneak thievery and car break-ins move to armed robbery of dealers or the Los Angeles specialty, the smash and grab flash mob robbery. I do not wish to be on the liability end of any of that.

Most shows I have set up at since COVID have been in municipal facilities patrolled actively by local PD. I think that is the best way to keep the crime to a minimum, visible and active law enforcement presence. If I wanted to promote a show again, it would only be in a facility where I could get police stationed inside and I would also insist on hiring off-duty police officers for additional security.

I completely agree that show attendees and dealers will have to consider paying for security to be part of their future ticket prices and overhead expenses. There is just too much money sloshing around shows to count on amateurs to deter the crime.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

I am in no way shaming any victims in saying this, but we hear so many instances of cards being swiped from cases. Cases are normally lockable; no matter how inconvenient it is to have to lock and unlock them constantly, please do so.

[packs]

I've been followed home twice in my life, neither as a result of a card show. Just some asshole who probably saw me go to the ATM or something. Both time I noticed the same car making a series of the same turns and on both occasions I rerouted and pulled into a police station. The first time this happened to me the car didn't even realized what they were doing and pulled into the station too, then quickly made a U-Turn out of the lot.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

I am in no way shaming any victims in saying this, but we hear so many instances of cards being swiped from cases. Cases are normally lockable; no matter how inconvenient it is to have to lock and unlock them constantly, please do so.

Our theft threads this year could have been solved by:

1) Not shipping millions in cards to a hotel delivery room.

2) Keeping an eye on the case with extremely expensive cards or locking them in a case too large to effectively snatch and grab.

3) Locking their car in the parking lot.

4) Not leaving expensive cards in a unattended vehicle.

Basic common sense would have prevented all 4. A victim of a crime is not at fault, but a lack of common sense will make one a likelier victim in an imperfect world in which people do bad things. Extremist solutions are not relevant to what has actually happened, especially violent nutters looking for an excuse to display how tough they are.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by G1911

Our theft threads this year could have been solved by:

1) Not shipping millions in cards to a hotel delivery room.

2) Keeping an eye on the case with extremely expensive cards AND locking them in a case too large to effectively snatch and grab.

3) Locking their car in the parking lot.

4) Not leaving expensive cards in a unattended vehicle.

Basic common sense would have prevented all 4. A victim of a crime is not at fault, but a lack of common sense will make one a likelier victim in an imperfect world in which people do bad things. Extremist solutions are not relevant to what has actually happened, especially violent nutters looking for an excuse to display how tough they are.

One small edit above.

As a dealer, it's a safe assumption that your cases (or the ones you are renting) have locks. All it costs you is extra time and care to fully utilize them.

"I spent my money on the Clapgo D-29. It's the most impenetrable lock on the market today. It has only one design flaw: the door...must be CLOSED!"

[G1911]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

One small edit above.

As a dealer, your case (or the one you are renting) has to have locks. All it costs you is extra time and care to fully utilize them.

"I spent my money on the Clapgo D-29. It's the most impenetrable lock on the market today. It has only one design flaw: the door...must be CLOSED!"

Your version is better!

[Eric72]

Thank you for this post, Adam. In my opinion, reading it was time well spent.

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Trent: no hyperbole or sounding off to hear myself think, just throwing some cold water on the Clint Eastwood control fantasies about guns.

Most people are not capable of handling a gun in a stressful situation, let alone in a crowd. They are not trained and have no experience. The few times I've brandished my gun for self-defense reasons at home I've been scared crapless and not sure if I could have hit the side of a barn cleanly had the sight of a big-ass gun not scared off the miscreants. I was not in a crowd, either. Armed in public in a crowd is not a place for amateurs. If shows allow arms, I am far more afraid of some yahoo with a handgun firing wildly into the crowd than I am of anyone stealing cards at a card show.

The laws on the line between self-defense and criminally culpable homicide are very fine and nuanced, again not a place for amateurs to play sheriff. We covered it in law school and just scraped the surface. Most of the popular 'knowledge' about it is folktales. As someone else noted, you can't just shoot someone who stole something, nor are the 'stand your ground' laws in the states that have them as absolute as the fantasists claim.

Now, taking on the topic of show security: I have promoted shows, set up at them, and attended them for nearly 50 years. I was asked into a group that wanted to run shows in LA and I opted not to join because of my concerns about security. It is just a matter of time before the sneak thievery and car break-ins move to armed robbery of dealers or the Los Angeles specialty, the smash and grab flash mob robbery. I do not wish to be on the liability end of any of that.

Most shows I have set up at since COVID have been in municipal facilities patrolled actively by local PD. I think that is the best way to keep the crime to a minimum, visible and active law enforcement presence. If I wanted to promote a show again, it would only be in a facility where I could get police stationed inside and I would also insist on hiring off-duty police officers for additional security.

I completely agree that show attendees and dealers will have to consider paying for security to be part of their future ticket prices and overhead expenses. There is just too much money sloshing around shows to count on amateurs to deter the crime.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Now, taking on the topic of show security: I have promoted shows, set up at them, and attended them for nearly 50 years. I was asked into a group that wanted to run shows in LA and I opted not to join because of my concerns about security. It is just a matter of time before the sneak thievery and car break-ins move to armed robbery of dealers or the Los Angeles specialty, the smash and grab flash mob robbery. I do not wish to be on the liability end of any of that.

Most shows I have set up at since COVID have been in municipal facilities patrolled actively by local PD. I think that is the best way to keep the crime to a minimum, visible and active law enforcement presence. If I wanted to promote a show again, it would only be in a facility where I could get police stationed inside and I would also insist on hiring off-duty police officers for additional security.

I completely agree that show attendees and dealers will have to consider paying for security to be part of their future ticket prices and overhead expenses. There is just too much money sloshing around shows to count on amateurs to deter the crime.

The solution is for show promoters to hire visible armed security whether that be off-duty policemen or private security guards.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

The solution is for show promoters to hire visible armed security whether that be off-duty policemen or private security guards.

Does everyone saying this realize there were several uniformed police officers walking the show every day, plus conspicuous security staff as well? There's no way to cover an entire show of the size of the Philly show.

[Balticfox]

That then is probably why we've not seen gangs descend upon shows to grab-and-run as they've been doing to stores in big cities of California.

[theshowandme]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Does everyone saying this realize there were several uniformed police officers walking the show every day, plus conspicuous security staff as well? There's no way to cover an entire show of the size of the Philly show.

I noticed a larger presence myself walking around.

Curious if we see that in Chantilly

[calvindog]

I haven’t read this whole thread as it’s filled with the usual ten page diatribes, but as a rabid gun guy, you wouldn’t catch me at a show if people were carrying either open or concealed. Too many people aren’t trained properly and people would end up getting shot by accident. Whatever is at risk of being stolen at a show does not merit people walking around with guns. Hire more security but hell no to guns on the premises.

Even if you’re being robbed, it’s illegal to shoot someone in response unless the thief is pointing a gun or other deadly weapon at you. And if for some reason you pull out a gun in anger, there’s a greater chance you’ll end up being shot instead. Even while armed, I’d be way more likely to hand over my wallet then pull out a gun if someone was pointing one at me during a robbery.

[ClementeFanOh]

PeterSpaeth- the guy with 30,000 more posts than me, thinks I need a
break. The joke writes itself, does it not?

G1911- you honor yourself by continuing to insist that I "hate" you. I don't,
never even met you. My blood pressure doesn't rise a single point when I
type in response to your rhetoric. I think you know just enough to get
yourself into trouble, and retaliate with endless propaganda against those
who oppose you ("It's not a lie if you believe it" - thanks George Costanza).
Your coverup about making jokes doesn't fly, you are far too nasty and
defiant to joke around with me- it was snide cynicism. This is it for me on
this thread, simple points follow. If you can't comprehend them, you are
being deliberately obtuse:

1) The increase in higher dollar thefts at shows is real, and board members
who attend have voiced legitimate concern about lessening them.

2) There are many ways to help deter theft at shows, and some posters
have attempted discussion about them. As usual, these discussions have
been derailed. When we are able to stay on point, it's clear there is
some disagreement about these ways. The need for some change,
however, is patently obvious. Willful indifference will fail- period.

3) You can lose the crap about my advocating violence, it's pure nonsense
that even you know is nonsense. Remarkable that you can attempt to
admonish me for missing a joke, but that you are blind to your own
faults. I don't advocate violence, I don't think people need to bring
bazookas/grenades/bandoliers full of ammunition to shows. It's tired
and, worse, wrong for you to keep pushing this agenda.

4) I hope the on-point observations cause promoters/sellers/attendees
to up their game when it comes to vigilance at shows. It helps everyone,
thus it's logical to expect all parts of the process to participate.

5) I'm done reading this thread, so be advised anything else you come up
with is nothing more than typing practice.

Trent King

[notfast]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Notfast has joined this miserable little battle. If ever I doubted my stance
in this matter, that doubt is now removed... And for the record, Notsmart,
I haven't claimed that I'm right and everyone else is wrong- that's just more
hyperbole from a tired mind. I have made the point that changes need to
happen at shows to make it harder on thieves, and suggested multiple
changes myself. Predictably, one segment started a 2nd Amendment debate
and ignored the actual thrust of the original post. I hardly think I'm right all
the time; however, I am capable of staying on point. How about you?

Trent King

Do you attend shows?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by notfast

Do you attend shows?

Hopefully he does not