First-ever SGC 10 Wilt Chamberlain Rookie Graded

[Rocketcards]

If anyone is interested found this on another site. Looks like the new one blows this one away.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What's with that top edge.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What's with that top edge.

While it looks trimmed, it's most likely a factory cut. This is just how Fleer cut these. Vast majority of 61 Fleer have similar slanted cuts believe it or not. And most do not measure 2.5 x 3.5. Particularly cards 1 through 6,which align on the right edge of the sheet and are ALWAYS (yes every single copy in existence) narrow.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

While it looks trimmed, it's most likely a factory cut. This is just how Fleer cut these. Vast majority of 61 Fleer have similar slanted cuts believe it or not. And most do not measure 2.5 x 3.5. Particularly cards 1 through 6,which align on the right edge of the sheet and are ALWAYS (yes every single copy in existence) narrow.

It's not size that bothers me. It's the "bat ear" in the upper right. While not every trimmed card exhibits the dreaded curved corner I've yet to see a factory cut card with one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

It's not size that bothers me. It's the "bat ear" in the upper right. While not every trimmed card exhibits the dreaded curved corner I've yet to see a factory cut card with one.

That's what jumped out at me immediately.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That's what jumped out at me immediately.

Bottom right seems to have a similar dynamic, although a little less pronounced.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

It's not size that bothers me. It's the "bat ear" in the upper right. While not every trimmed card exhibits the dreaded curved corner I've yet to see a factory cut card with one.

Yes, I know what you mean. But with this set in particular (and this is the only set I'm aware of where this is true), the bat-eared cuts like this are actually quite common. I've studied this set intensely. It took me years to build out the full set with all centered copies. I stared at pretty much every 1961 Fleer card that hit eBay or auction houses for many years. They're always the first thing I search, as it's my absolute favorite set in the hobby. And I've had multiple sets go through my hands. There are just way too many cards cut like this for it not to have been a factory issue. It's the most poorly cut set in the entire hobby, that I'm aware of. I think it would be nearly impossible to tell the difference between a factory-cut card and even one that was poorly trimmed, let alone "properly" trimmed (assuming the edge in question was on the top or the bottom) if looking at scans online.

Start looking closely at the cuts on some random commons and make mental notes. You'll see what I mean if you look into it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Yes, I know what you mean. But with this set in particular (and this is the only set I'm aware of where this is true), the bat-eared cuts like this are actually quite common. I've studied this set intensely. It took me years to build out the full set with all centered copies. I stared at pretty much every 1961 Fleer card that hit eBay or auction houses for many years. They're always the first thing I search, as it's my absolute favorite set in the hobby. And I've had multiple sets go through my hands. There are just way too many cards cut like this for it not to have been a factory issue. It's the most poorly cut set in the entire hobby, that I'm aware of. I think it would be nearly impossible to tell the difference between a factory-cut card and even one that was poorly trimmed, let alone "properly" trimmed (assuming the edge in question was on the top or the bottom) if looking at scans online.

Start looking closely at the cuts on some random commons and make mental notes. You'll see what I mean if you look into it.

Hmmm. I get how sloppy quality control would result in size issues or angled cuts. Not sure I can visualize how factory sloppiness would produce a bat ear, the way trimming can of course. Surely you can post some examples of this common phenomenon?

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Hmmm. I get how sloppy quality control would result in size issues or angled cuts. Not sure I can visualize how factory sloppiness would produce a bat ear, the way trimming can of course. Surely you can post some examples of this common phenomenon?

I have had my fair share of 61 Fleers too. I have seen legit factory cuts that leave the card too small to holder and seen many that are cut on an angle or printed on an angle. Never seen a 61 Fleer or any other card with a legit factory cut (with the card sizing or not) with a bat ear appearance on any corner. I would love to see examples and since they are common, it should be no problem. Thanks in advance!

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Hmmm. I get how sloppy quality control would result in size issues or angled cuts. Not sure I can visualize how factory sloppiness would produce a bat ear, the way trimming can of course. Surely you can post some examples of this common phenomenon?

I don't have scans of the bad ones, but even in my heavily cherry-picked set I have a few commons with bat ear cuts or upward sloping cuts. Here are a handful of them. And again, these are the best of the best copies I've found over the years. You could browse ebay right now and easily find numerous copies with slanted bat-ear cuts.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I stared at pretty much every 1961 Fleer card that hit eBay or auction houses for many years.

Except my centered Jerry West :P

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Except my centered Jerry West :P

I actually did see it. Was a beauty. But I have 3 centered Wests now.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Yes, I know what you mean. But with this set in particular (and this is the only set I'm aware of where this is true), the bat-eared cuts like this are actually quite common. I've studied this set intensely. It took me years to build out the full set with all centered copies. I stared at pretty much every 1961 Fleer card that hit eBay or auction houses for many years. They're always the first thing I search, as it's my absolute favorite set in the hobby. And I've had multiple sets go through my hands. There are just way too many cards cut like this for it not to have been a factory issue. It's the most poorly cut set in the entire hobby, that I'm aware of. I think it would be nearly impossible to tell the difference between a factory-cut card and even one that was poorly trimmed, let alone "properly" trimmed (assuming the edge in question was on the top or the bottom) if looking at scans online.

Start looking closely at the cuts on some random commons and make mental notes. You'll see what I mean if you look into it.

Probably not as many as you but I've certainly handled a lot of them including a lot of high grade raw examples that I submitted for consignors (especially the one collection that had basically three of everything) and I don't recall seeing bat-eared corners. Lots of size variations, crappy cuts etc. but not curved corners.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What's with that top edge.

You are not supposed to look below the label!

I am not liking the cut at all either and not sure I recall seeing a legit cut on any card that looks like that. It might not be trimmed but if not it certainly appears that would be a factory miscut.

[Beercan collector]

An intact BVG 6.5 on ebay $7850
Even if I had all the money in the world to throw away I would get this before I would get the psa 10 pictured above ,
That thing looks terrible

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

double post

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

6.5? Am I not seeing paper loss on that bottom right corner? Either that or a folded-up corner. I'm seeing scratches which appear to be on the card and not the slab, and is that a partial fingerprint over the W in Wilt? This card and EX/MT should be miles apart from each other in a conversation.

I like the card--just find the grade strange.

[Beercan collector]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

6.5? Am I not seeing paper loss on that bottom right corner? Either that or a folded-up corner. I'm seeing scratches which appear to be on the card and not the slab, and is that a partial fingerprint over the W in Wilt? This card and EX/MT should be miles apart from each other in a conversation.

I like the card--just find the grade strange.

Agree 100% - I like the full borders , the centering and clean print .
Would be very attractive as a PSA 4 or 4.5

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

6.5? Am I not seeing paper loss on that bottom right corner? Either that or a folded-up corner. I'm seeing scratches which appear to be on the card and not the slab, and is that a partial fingerprint over the W in Wilt? This card and EX/MT should be miles apart from each other in a conversation.

I like the card--just find the grade strange.

I own this card (as well as an SGC 6). You are correct, it is not an EXMT+ copy. At least not by today's grading standards at PSA. The bottom right corner is soft, but not folded-up. The scratches are on the soft inner sleeve that Beckett puts inside their slabs. They're not on the surface of the card itself. This card would grade as a 5.5 at SGC today, and anywhere between a 2 and a 5.5 at PSA depending on which grader you get on which day. But it's definitely not a 6 at PSA if cracked out and submitted today.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Rocketcards

If anyone is interested found this on another site. Looks like the new one blows this one away.

This copy would be rejected today as min size at PSA without question. And even if they were to grade it (they won't), it's a 7, maaaaybe 8 if you're lucky. Zero chance at a 9 though today. But again, this card is not passing grading today at PSA. I guarantee it. I would put my knowledge of 61 Fleer up against anyone in the hobby. I know this set, and how they are graded, like I know my own child.