Buying a Raw 1959 Topps Mickey Mantle, SGC "NO", & Dealer Responsibility

[LEHR]

Originally Posted by Smanzari

Grade chasing is one thing, but selling an altered card as non-altered is another. If this is the case, any respectable dealer should offer a refund or an exchange, and if applicable, should be put on blast for selling altered cards

On the flip side of this; maybe the dealer had no idea the card was altered. if I were the dealer and I had some random guy who supposedly bought this 59 Mantle from me at a show a few weeks/months ago come back and say they wanted a refund because SGC said it wouldn't grade I'd probably laugh at them.

1. Some of these guys are doing shows almost every weekend. How do you expect them to remember your singular transaction of buying this Mantle from them. That card could have came from anywhere.
2. Say I as the dealer did remember the transaction; I have no way of knowing what the buyer did to the card or how it was handled before it was sent to SGC or since it was returned.
And 3. Like Adam (Exhibitman) said, if you wanted a graded card you should have bought one. Once you visually inspect and pay for a card at my table you'd own it. I'd personally never sell an altered card unless it was slabbed as such, but I also wouldn't give refunds on raw cards based solely on a third party opinion.

[mintacular]

Here are the back scans. A few things of note.

The dealers are new and have claimed they don't grade cards. Based on my talking to them they did seem inexperienced and it's possible they just don't send cards for grading that often. Most of their cards were raw and they only had a few big cards, 59s including this one.

In hindsight, the price I paid was a reach and I thought it had a shot at a 5.5 hence my risk.

To the folks who would laugh/dismiss at even broaching a return, try to put yourself in my shoes. Again, I would not have asked for a return if the card came back less than expected and I'm not even asking for a full return. Also, I paid near comp for a 5 so it wasn't like the scenario was well under comp with a disclaimer that they aren't sure about the authenticity/ etc. of the card....

[Rhotchkiss]

I think you certainly CAN ask for a return, and I see no reason not to. But I do not think you are entitled to a return, and I would not be surprised if your request was denied. You freely and willingly bought the card under no duress and you had every opportunity to inspect, negotiate, and walk away.

Thought, if he won’t let you return it, maybe he will but it back for a percentage of your cost, so it mitigates your “loss”.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I think you certainly CAN ask for a return, and I see no reason not to. But I do not think you are entitled to a return, and I would not be surprised if your request was denied. You freely and willingly bought the card under no duress and you had every opportunity to inspect, negotiate, and walk away.

Thought, if he won’t let you return it, maybe he will but it back for a percentage of your cost, so it mitigates your “loss”.

Similarly, you could ask for some store credit on the return. It’s a tough call but my view is if they knew it was altered they are in the wrong. If they didn’t know, they didn’t do anything wrong (although they could still be nice and allow a return but I wouldn’t bet on it). What they knew at the time will likely remain a mystery unfortunately.

[x2drich2000]

Originally Posted by mintacular

To the folks who would laugh/dismiss at even broaching a return, try to put yourself in my shoes. Again, I would not have asked for a return if the card came back less than expected and I'm not even asking for a full return. Also, I paid near comp for a 5 so it wasn't like the scenario was well under comp with a disclaimer that they aren't sure about the authenticity/ etc. of the card....

In the same line of thought, put yourself in the dealers shoes. Not saying you would, but how does the dealer know you didn't trim the card and when you did not get the result you wanted now want to unload it? If every dealer took returns like this the trimmers would have zero risk buying every card they could since they could always get their money back. Also how does the dealer, weeks later, know this is even the exact same card? Once the card leaves the dealers table they have no way to know what the buyer has done with it. Since one of the posters above mentioned bad dealers, it should also be remembered there are also bad buyers. Furthermore, why does the dealer have to trust the opinion of SGC or anyone else for that matter? You're asking the dealer to take a return based on the opinion of someone they may or may not trust, or even care about so why should they be impacted by this third party's opinion?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by mintacular

Here are the back scans. A few things of note.

The dealers are new and have claimed they don't grade cards. Based on my talking to them they did seem inexperienced and it's possible they just don't send cards for grading that often. Most of their cards were raw and they only had a few big cards, 59s including this one.

In hindsight, the price I paid was a reach and I thought it had a shot at a 5.5 hence my risk.

To the folks who would laugh/dismiss at even broaching a return, try to put yourself in my shoes. Again, I would not have asked for a return if the card came back less than expected and I'm not even asking for a full return. Also, I paid near comp for a 5 so it wasn't like the scenario was well under comp with a disclaimer that they aren't sure about the authenticity/ etc. of the card....

I get that it sucks. I actually paid more than double that for a raw card the seller told me he thought it would get a 3 for a grade. Like yours the only grade it would ever get is a A for authentic. I honestly think I was kinda scammed by the seller because he usually has very good pics. The ones he sent me was kinda out of focus and hid the paper loss and recoloring that was obvious in hand once I actually received the card. No guarantee was given or asked for so I took it as a semi expensive learning experience.

Saying that there is NO chance in hell I would ask for a refund or give one if I was the seller. The only exception was if there was an agreement from a regular customer/friend that a certain level of grade was guaranteed.

[Smanzari]

I'm so confused by the response here, I understand if OP purchased it expecting a "5" and got a "2," but this feels like they bought an altered card thinking it was unaltered. Makes me a little uneasy as I frequently buy raw cards in the BST Here. FWIW, I am a dealer and without question would offer a return/refund in this situation.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Smanzari

I'm so confused by the response here, I understand if OP purchased it expecting a "5" and got a "2," but this feels like they bought an altered card thinking it was unaltered. Makes me a little uneasy as I frequently buy raw cards in the BST Here. FWIW, I am a dealer and without question would offer a return/refund in this situation.

Nice, can you post a link to your eBay page or any other online place you sell cards?

[Smanzari]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Nice, can you post a link to your eBay page or any other online place you sell cards?

Smvintage13.com

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

And how is the seller supposed to know that the card in question wasn't altered after it left his possession, or is even the same card? We guarantee everything we sell to get a number grade (unless stated otherwise in the listing) but to take advantage of the guarantee it has to be submitted by us. Once it leaves our possession (to the buyer) it's bought.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Smanzari

I'm so confused by the response here, I understand if OP purchased it expecting a "5" and got a "2," but this feels like they bought an altered card thinking it was unaltered. Makes me a little uneasy as I frequently buy raw cards in the BST Here. FWIW, I am a dealer and without question would offer a return/refund in this situation.

Very admirable. Wish there were more like you, and will check out your site for sure.