Warren Spahn - Why No Hobby Love?

[71buc]

Warren was the Frank Robinson of pitchers.

[obcbeatle]

"Spahn & Sain and pray for rain", or something like that Being a Braves/Giants collector I have quite a few Spahn's. Waddell & Koufax had unhittable stuff. Spahn had great stuff AND endurance. I really need to read the Spahn/Marichal game book, and they both had a huge leg kicks!!

[Topnotchsy]

I think there are many factors that come to play, though I'm not a big believer in the NY factor. There aren't exactly a ton of huge value pitchers from NY either.

Spahn had an extremely impressive career and a more impressive life, but he isn't the profile of a pitcher who becomes highly collected. While he did league the league in K's for 4 of his 21 seasons, he never K'd 200 in a season and his career total is not 2583, which is nice but not crazy. His K/9 for his career is 4.4, which is extremely low.

Additionally, while he was often a very good pitcher, he was only rarely an elite pitcher. His ERA+ was consistently in the 115-125 range, which is solid but not special. He had 2 seasons (1947 and 1953) when he was absolutely elite. He won just 1 Cy Young award (in 1957 which ironically was one of his solid, but not great seasons) and much of his value is in the sheer number of innings he pitcherd. His 162 game avg BWAR is 4.4 which reflects a very solid, but not remarkable pitcher.

Spahn's consistency and longevity resulted in some incredible career numbers, but his 119 ERA+ is the same as Red Faber, Ron Guidry, Bobby Shantz and Bob Lemon, some very good pitchers, but not all-time greats.

The pitchers who get collected are those who put up elite, elite numbers and are 'must watch' baseball. Spahn was boringly very good for a very very long time.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

I think there are many factors that come to play, though I'm not a big believer in the NY factor. There aren't exactly a ton of huge value pitchers from NY either. Spahn had an extremely impressive career and a more impressive life, but he isn't the profile of a pitcher who becomes highly collected. While he did league the league in K's for 4 of his 21 seasons, he never K'd 200 in a season and his career total is not 2583, which is nice but not crazy. His K/9 for his career is 4.4, which is extremely low.
Additionally, while he was often a very good pitcher, he was only rarely an elite pitcher. His ERA+ was consistently in the 115-125 range, which is solid but not special. He had 2 seasons (1947 and 1953) when he was absolutely elite. He won just 1 Cy Young award (in 1957 which ironically was one of his solid, but not great seasons) and much of his value is in the sheer number of innings he pitched. His 162 game avg BWAR is 4.4 which reflects a very solid, but not remarkable pitcher. Spahn's consistency and longevity resulted in some incredible career numbers, but his 119 ERA+ is the same as Red Faber, Ron Guidry, Bobby Shantz and Bob Lemon, some very good pitchers, but not all-time greats. The pitchers who get collected are those who put up elite, elite numbers and are 'must watch' baseball. Spahn was boringly very good for a very very long time.

I'm sorry, but if these "modern" metrics of yours add up to the conclusion that Spahn wasn't a LOT better than Red Faber, Ron Guidry, or Bob Lemon, you need to go back to the drawing board. The guy won 20 games or more 13 times, he pitched 5,200 innings despite missing three prime years for military service, he completed 362 games of 665 started, won 363 of them including 63 shutouts (both records for lefties) He was an All-Star 17 times, far and away the most for pitchers. Not enough Ks for you, ERAs not low enough? Maybe he just knew how to pitch, and didn't mind letting his fielders do some work or putting some runners on base until it was time to bear down. Not to denigrate the pitchers you named or any others you might want to lump him in with, but he was head and shoulders above them because 1) he was a prodigious winner for an incredibly long time, 2) his numbers are nothing less than staggering, especially considering he was already 25 when he came up, and 3) oh, by the way, he was a terrific hitter and fielder. Spahnie just "very good?" Give me a break.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I'm sorry, but if these "modern" metrics of yours add up to the conclusion that Spahn wasn't a LOT better than Red Faber, Ron Guidry, or Bob Lemon, you need to go back to the drawing board. The guy won 20 games or more 13 times, he pitched 5,200 innings despite missing three prime years for military service, he completed 362 games of 665 started, won 363 of them including 63 shutouts (both records for lefties) He was an All-Star 17 times, far and away the most for pitchers. Not enough Ks for you, ERAs not low enough? Maybe he just knew how to pitch, and didn't mind letting his fielders do some work or putting some runners on base until it was time to bear down. Not to denigrate the pitchers you named or any others you might want to lump him in with, but he was head and shoulders above them because 1) he was a prodigious winner for an incredibly long time, 2) his numbers are nothing less than staggering, especially considering he was already 25 when he came up, and 3) oh, by the way, he was a terrific hitter and fielder. Spahnie just "very good?" Give me a break.

Hank,
Sorry, I missed your post. Exactly...

[bjerome]

I would like to also point out that the Cy Young Award was not given out until 1956. By this time, half of Spahn's career was over. Spahn had 8 seasons out of a 21 year career in which he was in his peak form for Cy Young Consideration from 1956-1963. In those 8 seasons he won the Cy Young Award once and had 4 additional Top 3 Finishes. That makes for a total of 5 times finishing in the Top 3 for the Cy Young Award. The more impressive part of that fact is that in those days, there was only 1 Cy Young Award presented. The award was not presented to a recipient from each league until 1967. He only hung around for 2 seasons after that 1963 season (he went 22-7 in 1963), so you can't even say he hung around too long.

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I'm sorry, but if these "modern" metrics of yours add up to the conclusion that Spahn wasn't a LOT better than Red Faber, Ron Guidry, or Bob Lemon, you need to go back to the drawing board. The guy won 20 games or more 13 times, he pitched 5,200 innings despite missing three prime years for military service, he completed 362 games of 665 started, won 363 of them including 63 shutouts (both records for lefties) He was an All-Star 17 times, far and away the most for pitchers. Not enough Ks for you, ERAs not low enough? Maybe he just knew how to pitch, and didn't mind letting his fielders do some work or putting some runners on base until it was time to bear down. Not to denigrate the pitchers you named or any others you might want to lump him in with, but he was head and shoulders above them because 1) he was a prodigious winner for an incredibly long time, 2) his numbers are nothing less than staggering, especially considering he was already 25 when he came up, and 3) oh, by the way, he was a terrific hitter and fielder. Spahnie just "very good?" Give me a break.

You are missing my point. I have zero intention of denigrating Spahn, who was an excellent pitcher for a very long time. I was simply expressing why he does not get a ton of hobby attention.

To paraphrase a famous advertisement, "collectors dig the flash." Being consistently good for a long time does not make a player valuable in the hobby. Collectors prefer a brief fireworks explosion than extended consistency. Think Koufax over Spahn, even though for his career, Spahn was way more valuable.

The fact he did not have a huge number of K's is not an indictment of his pitching ability. It's a recognition that K's get attention. It's one of the reasons that Bob Feller finished higher than Thorton Lee in the MVP voting in 1941, despite Lee having a much lower ERA.

You refer to my use of 'modern metrics.' Don't get caught up in the metric. I'm using it to emphasize a point. ERA+ looks at how much better a player's ERA is from the league average. It is a metric that easily translates into attention. In 2002, when Pedro Martinez has an ERA of 2.22 and the league average was above 4, people paid attention. In 1968, when the average ERA was under 3, a 2.22 ERA was nice but not attracting a ton of attention.

I did not intend to compare Spahn to Red Faber, Ron Guidry, or Bob Lemon except to highlight that he was not generally a very dominant pitcher. This remains accurate, but when you look at his career, none of those are remotely good comps. I was highlighting that his actual dominance is in fact similar to players who are lesser players.

A different Braves pitcher is probably a better comp. Tom Glavine won 300+ games, won 20 or more 5 times in an era where that was much rarer. And had an ERA+ for his career of 118, almost identical to Spahn. I don't think there is anyone out there who believes that Glavine deserves way more hobby attention.

Additionally, the hobby is heavily biased towards players who started young, since fans can project their HOF trajectory from early on and jump on. Spahn started his career late and had just 108 wins by age 30. This does not make his career win total less impressive, it arguably makes it more impressive, but it was probably not until he was 37-38 that people viewed him as a HOFer. Again, not a statement about his value as a baseball player, but a factor in the hobby.

I'm trying to emphasize two points:
1) Spahn's value in the hobby is lower than his value as a baseball player, because he was quickly excellent for a long time, but was not flashy and did not have the factors (such as starting at a young age, K'ing a lot of poeple, having unworldly seasons like Koufax etc) that get attention.

2)Spahn was an elite pitcher, but he is not in the same league as Lefty Grove, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson or Tom Seaver. He never achieved their levels of dominance

[gonefishin]

Jeff, Jim Hoskins here. I need to comment a little - I for one didn't take your comments as derogatory. I actually enjoyed them because it gave me a little more insight as to why some people don't embrace Mr. Spahn more in the hobby. That was the objective for beginning the thread.

So, thank you for your perspective! I would actually like to hear from other readers that may also have reasons why Spahn doesn't receive the love.

We all don't have to agree with someone's opinion because that's what it is - their opinion.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

You are missing my point. I have zero intention of denigrating Spahn, who was an excellent pitcher for a very long time. I was simply expressing why he does not get a ton of hobby attention.

No, I didn't miss your point, I just disagreed with it. Nowhere did I accuse you of denigrating Spahn, you made that up. But your intention in stating that "Spahn's consistency and longevity resulted in some incredible career numbers, but his 119 ERA+ is the same as Red Faber, Ron Guidry, Bobby Shantz and Bob Lemon, some very good pitchers, but not all-time greats" is unmistakable. I just disagree with you, that's all. Trying to turn his "consistency and longevity" into some kind of case against his inclusion with the all-time greats is laughable since those are among the prime criteria. Say what you will, he merits discussion in the same breath as those you name, IMO. As for why he doesn't get the hobby love to go with that, your guess is as good as mine. Small market, no flash, his schnoz, who knows? Maybe the hobby will catch up to his record one of these days. Just to try to wrap up this up, the guy had more wins and shutouts than any other lefty in baseball history. That alone should merit his inclusion with the elite few at the top, shouldn't it?

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

No, I didn't miss your point, I just disagreed with it. Nowhere did I accuse you of denigrating Spahn, you made that up. But your intention in stating that "Spahn's consistency and longevity resulted in some incredible career numbers, but his 119 ERA+ is the same as Red Faber, Ron Guidry, Bobby Shantz and Bob Lemon, some very good pitchers, but not all-time greats" is unmistakable. I just disagree with you, that's all. Trying to turn his "consistency and longevity" into some kind of case against his inclusion with the all-time greats is laughable since those are among the prime criteria. Say what you will, he merits discussion in the same breath as those you name, IMO. As for why he doesn't get the hobby love to go with that, your guess is as good as mine. Small market, no flash, his schnoz, who knows? Maybe the hobby will catch up to his record one of these days. Just to try to wrap up this up, the guy had more wins and shutouts than any other lefty in baseball history. That alone should merit his inclusion with the elite few at the top, shouldn't it?

Fair enough. I did not realize you want to put him in the same category as guys like Grove, Maddux etc. If so, we disagree. I see him as a tier lower than that. Still slam-dunk HOF and better than many pitchers in the Hall, but not on the short list (say top 10) best pitchers all-time.

Regarding, "denigrating"... I thought you were taking me to say that Spahn was a similar pitcher to Red Faber, Ron Guidry, Bobby Shantz and Bob Lemon, which I definitely was not meaning to say.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

I think there are many factors that come to play, though I'm not a big believer in the NY factor. There aren't exactly a ton of huge value pitchers from NY either.

Spahn had an extremely impressive career and a more impressive life, but he isn't the profile of a pitcher who becomes highly collected. While he did league the league in K's for 4 of his 21 seasons, he never K'd 200 in a season and his career total is not 2583, which is nice but not crazy. His K/9 for his career is 4.4, which is extremely low.

Additionally, while he was often a very good pitcher, he was only rarely an elite pitcher. His ERA+ was consistently in the 115-125 range, which is solid but not special. He had 2 seasons (1947 and 1953) when he was absolutely elite. He won just 1 Cy Young award (in 1957 which ironically was one of his solid, but not great seasons) and much of his value is in the sheer number of innings he pitcherd. His 162 game avg BWAR is 4.4 which reflects a very solid, but not remarkable pitcher.

Spahn's consistency and longevity resulted in some incredible career numbers, but his 119 ERA+ is the same as Red Faber, Ron Guidry, Bobby Shantz and Bob Lemon, some very good pitchers, but not all-time greats.

The pitchers who get collected are those who put up elite, elite numbers and are 'must watch' baseball. Spahn was boringly very good for a very very long time.

Hi Jeff,
Although I agree with some of your analysis, I believe there are several noteworthy omissions that apply to Warren Spahn:

13 seasons with 20 or more wins
8 seasons leading the league in wins
363 wins is fifth All-Time in MLB
63 shutouts is #6 All-Time" in MLB
Two no-hitters thrown AFTER age 39
Lifetime ERA was a solid 3.09
Cy Young in 1957
Sporting News Pitcher of the Year 4 times 1953, 1957, 1958, 1961
.995 Fielding Average (One of best ever in the MLB)
14 x All-Star- He appeared in 7 of them
World Series Champion 1957

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Hi Jeff,
Although I agree with some of your analysis, I believe there are several noteworthy omissions that apply to Warren Spahn:

13 seasons with 20 or more wins
8 seasons leading the league in wins
363 wins is fifth All-Time in MLB
63 shutouts is #6 All-Time" in MLB
Two no-hitters thrown AFTER age 39
Lifetime ERA was a solid 3.09
Cy Young in 1957
Sporting News Pitcher of the Year 4 times 1953, 1957, 1958, 1961
.995 Fielding Average (One of best ever in the MLB)
7 x All-Star
World Series Champion 1957

You need to double the All Star appearances to 14 lol. Plus, anyone focusing on things like strikeouts and whip need to look and see that he led the league in those categories several times. He wasn’t just some pretty good guy that could go out and rattle off pitching wins (as if that would be a bad thing).

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Carter08

You need to double the All Star appearances to 14 lol. Plus, anyone focusing on things like strikeouts and whip need to look and see that he led the league in those categories several times. He wasn’t just some pretty good guy that could go out and rattle off pitching wins (as if that would be a bad thing).

Thank you, Carter08,
FYI, I corrected my bullet regarding All-Star games. I meant to state that he pitched in 7 games, although you are correct that he was voted in 14 times.

[gonefishin]

The following is from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers website:

Less well known than his professional athletic feats, but also impressive, is Spahn’s record in World War II. Drafted in 1942 soon after making his major league debut that year with the Boston Braves, Private Warren E. Spahn was assigned to the 276th Engineer Combat Battalion. While in training at Camp Gruber, Oklahoma, he pitched the battalion’s team to the post championship. In Europe, at the Battle of the Bulge, he earned the Bronze Star. He likely became the only major league player to receive a battlefield commission.

The 276th played a conspicuous role at the Ludendorff Bridge at Remagen, Germany. The retreating Germans failed to destroy this vital Rhine River bridge, allowing the Americans to pour across it in great numbers and drive into the heart of Germany. Enemy artillery severely damaged the bridge, and the 276th was engaged in making repairs under fire. A combination of German shelling, vibrations from American artillery, and heavy tank traffic caused the collapse of the bridge 17 March 1945, killing several officers and men of the 276th. Lieutenant Spahn was not among the casualties of the collapse, but while at Remagen he was wounded in the foot by shrapnel (“only a scratch,” according to Spahn), earning him the Purple Heart. The 276th received a Presidential Unit Citation for its actions at Remagen.

Here is a quote from Mr. Spahn in 2005, listed on the same website:

“After what I went through overseas, I never thought of anything I was told to do in baseball as hard work. You get over feeling like that when you spend days on end sleeping in frozen tank tracks in enemy threatened territory. The Army taught me something about challenges and about what’s important and what isn’t. Everything I tackle in baseball and in life I take as a challenge rather than work.”

So my conclusion is - What a career would he have had if not sacrificing his peak youth years in the Army?

Yes, Mr. Warren Spahn was one of the greatest baseball stars of all time AND a true patriot!

[icollectDCsports]

Originally Posted by 71buc

Warren was the Frank Robinson of pitchers.

GREAT analog.

[Beercan collector]

Originally Posted by 71buc

Warren was the Frank Robinson of pitchers.

Yep and/or his more contemporary Stan Musial