First-ever SGC 10 Wilt Chamberlain Rookie Graded

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Personally speaking I just do not see a factory rough cut as a flaw...to me it is closer to a variation but some might not agree. Print lines, poor registration, washed out color, print spots, centering or surface wear (snow) are things which detract from a card's appearance. I just do not view the rough cut as a distraction and unless the rough cut impacts the sharpness of the corners I do not feel it should adversely impact the grade.

To me it's simpler. Is the card SUPPOSED to be fuzzy cut? Of course not. Just like it's not supposed to be off center or have fish eyes or paper flaws etc. Anything that is not an intentional part of the production process should get equal treatment.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by aquarian sports cards

to me it's simpler. Is the card supposed to be fuzzy cut? Of course not. Just like it's not supposed to be off center or have fish eyes or paper flaws etc. Anything that is not an intentional part of the production process should get equal treatment.

+1 👍🏻💯

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Is the card SUPPOSED to be fuzzy cut? Of course not. Just like it's not supposed to be off center or have fish eyes or paper flaws etc. Anything that is not an intentional part of the production process should get equal treatment.

I agree, but I don't.

I'm from the hometown of OPC. Growing up, we kids all abhorred the rough cuts. We thought they were kinda unprofessional as compared to the slick cards coming from south of the border. Nobody wanted OPC.

On the other hand, all those way-too-sharp OPC Gretzkys were mostly cut from uncut sheets years after the fact. You simply did not pull cards that nice from packs of OPC. For many years, you'd see people placing local classifieds to buy uncut OPC sheets. Guess what they were doing with them?

Fast forward to today, and I don't mind a rough cut. Nothing super-jagged, mind you, but that's personal preference. As some have speculated with wide bordered T206s, I have a feeling that a future premium will be placed on certain rough cuts.

Thus far, I'm not aware of anybody trying to create a rough cut artifically. Just wait and see. We'll get there someday.

I'm sure this is common knowledge to most of you, but thought I'd tell the old story about the reason for the rough cut OPC cards in case somebody was unaware. They cut the cards with a hot, electric wire device. In OPCs haste, many sheets were cut while still too damp; this is the cause of the OPC rough cuts.

Getting back to why I am on the fence about agreeing to Scott's opinion: if OPC, for instance, had intended every card to come off the production line perfectly, then yes, I would agree. But they clearly didn't care, ergo the rough cuts. Therefore, to me, a rough cut might not have been their ideal vision, but they let this slide for decades, so rough cuts were, indirectly, intentional. They released them that way; didn't bother scrapping that stupid hot wire until 1990 or thereabouts.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

I agree, but I don't.

I'm from the hometown of OPC. Growing up, we kids all abhorred the rough cuts. We thought they were kinda unprofessional as compared to the slick cards coming from south of the border. Nobody wanted OPC.

On the other hand, all those way-too-sharp OPC Gretzkys were mostly cut from uncut sheets years after the fact. You simply did not pull cards that nice from packs of OPC. For many years, you'd see people placing local classifieds to buy uncut OPC sheets. Guess what they were doing with them?

Fast forward to today, and I don't mind a rough cut. Nothing super-jagged, mind you, but that's personal preference. As some have speculated with wide bordered T206s, I have a feeling that a future premium will be placed on certain rough cuts.

Thus far, I'm not aware of anybody trying to create a rough cut artifically. Just wait and see. We'll get there someday.

I'm sure this is common knowledge to most of you, but thought I'd tell the old story about the reason for the rough cut OPC cards in case somebody was unaware. They cut the cards with a hot, electric wire device. In OPCs haste, many sheets were cut while still too damp; this is the cause of the OPC rough cuts.

Getting back to why I am on the fence about agreeing to Scott's opinion: if OPC, for instance, had intended every card to come off the production line perfectly, then yes, I would agree. But they clearly didn't care, ergo the rough cuts. Therefore, to me, a rough cut might not have been their ideal vision, but they let this slide for decades, so rough cuts were, indirectly, intentional. They released them that way; didn't bother scrapping that stupid hot wire until 1990 or thereabouts.

The hot wire story has been debunked several times.

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...-cut-is-solved

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

The hot wire story has been debunked several times.

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...-cut-is-solved

Thanks for the link. I'll be interested in reading. Local OPC employees have mentioned the wire as part of the process, so I have never had reason to question it.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Has it been definitively debunked? If so, I struggle with what I have heard locally over the years. Certainly wish I knew these former employees I talked to, but it was just conversations in passing, being local to the area. They would have had no vested interest in lying about it.

My only possible questions would then be, was the wire used initially, then this other system brought in? Or, possibly, both methods utilized at the same time? This latter speculation could certainly account for the varying quality as well, and how there were definitely more nicer cuts as the years progressed.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Has it been definitively debunked? If so, I struggle with what I have heard locally over the years. Certainly wish I knew these former employees I talked to, but it was just conversations in passing, being local to the area. They would have had no vested interest in lying about it.

My only possible questions would then be, was the wire used initially, then this other system brought in? Or, possibly, both methods utilized at the same time? This latter speculation could certainly account for the varying quality as well, and how there were definitely more nicer cuts as the years progressed.

My problem is I can find no evidence that ANY paper has EVER been cut with a hot wire. I worked for a printing company for 4 years, nobody there had ever heard of it, not even the old-timers.

If a wire is hot enough to cut paper how is it not setting stuff on fire, or at the very least scorching the edges? I think it's an urban legend that grew very long legs.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

My problem is I can find no evidence that ANY paper has EVER been cut with a hot wire. I worked for a printing company for 4 years, nobody there had ever heard of it, not even the old-timers.

If a wire is hot enough to cut paper how is it not setting stuff on fire, or at the very least scorching the edges? I think it's an urban legend that grew very long legs.

Because the sheets were cut while damp. The rough cuts stemmed from when they were too damp, so the story goes.

But yes, it makes me wonder where all the singed-edged printer's scrap went off to!

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

My problem is I can find no evidence that ANY paper has EVER been cut with a hot wire. I worked for a printing company for 4 years, nobody there had ever heard of it, not even the old-timers.

If a wire is hot enough to cut paper how is it not setting stuff on fire, or at the very least scorching the edges? I think it's an urban legend that grew very long legs.

Most Canadians actually believe that workers in the OPC London plant were slicing up all the sheets using wires! I never worked in the printing industry, but man, this story made zero sense to me (cutting sheets using wires ?? WTF ??) I did manage to talk to Ken McAvoy, who was the supervisor at the OPC plant from 1980 to 1998, and he told me there was no such thing.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Thus far, I'm not aware of anybody trying to create a rough cut artifically. Just wait and see. We'll get there someday.

I hate to break it to you, but that ship sailed long ago.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I hate to break it to you, but that ship sailed long ago.

I don't agree that those are the same card though. But I do agree that card doctors have been faking fuzzy cuts for a while.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I don't agree that those are the same card though. But I do agree that card doctors have been faking fuzzy cuts for a while.

They are the same card...https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=7827. Apparently this Moser guy has been doing rough cuts for decades.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

They are the same card...https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=7827. Apparently this Moser guy has been doing rough cuts for decades.

I love the BODA, but I don't think they're infallible. I see pretty definitive differences on these cards that shouldn't be doctorable (to a standard that would get past PSA or SGC.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

If the sheets were cut by blades at OPC, as is now apparently the accepted version of events according to what has been presented, this certainly still leaves me with some questions.

Why would they only cut one sheet at a time? That just seems ridiculously slow and inefficient.

If you are cutting very thin cardboard one sheet at a time, how poor quality are those blades that they would wear out so frequently as to cause such a high percentage of rough cuts? Why would they have not made a switch to a higher quality blade to ultimately save them money?

With all the OPC rough cuts, does it not illustrate that these blades either wore out almost instantly and they just kept using them, or that they wore out almost instantly and had to be replaced constantly? It has to be one or the other, does it not? No company is going to keep making this mistake for 30+ years when there has to be a more cost efficient solution which would ultimately yield a higher quality product.

That fellow who was answering the questions didn't even work at OPC if I managed to read it correctly. He worked at another local company (which is still in business--I used to know one of the daughters).

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I love the BODA, but I don't think they're infallible. I see pretty definitive differences on these cards that shouldn't be doctorable (to a standard that would get past PSA or SGC.

What would those be? And unless you are a doctor I would not put it past those who are to be able to do some pretty amazing things.

The back clearly has unique identifying "spots" that make it impossible to argue they are not the same card.

Your assumption is that when PSA graded this they were actually trying to catch alterations in PWCC's submissions. That does not seem to be the case with any of the thousands of cards BODA outed that had been submitted by PWCC.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I love the BODA, but I don't think they're infallible. I see pretty definitive differences on these cards that shouldn't be doctorable (to a standard that would get past PSA or SGC.

It's definitely the same card. Look at the back. There are numerous identifiable fingerprint markings.

Also, what's interesting most to me is that Moser (or whoever it was) made rough cuts on the shorter edges too, not just the longer edges. Which should have been a dead giveaway to anyone looking at it during grading. The rough cuts were only on the long edges for 56 Topps, as those were the edges that ran through the dull rotary blades. The short edges were cut by the guillotine-style ream cutters and did not produce rough cuts. It's strange to me because I would assume someone as detail oriented as Moser would have known this. Was he just trolling perhaps? Or was he actually unaware of that fact? I don't know.