Best of health to Elroy Face.

[Tere1071]

Originally Posted by akleinb611

Regarding the Face-Clemente mutual non-admiration relationship, Face was not an outlier. Clemente is correctly honored for the noble circumstances of his death, but during his lifetime, he could be rather difficult, and he was not popular with many of his teammates, particularly his African-American teammates. Donn Clendenon was traded, and wound up with the 1969 Mets, specifically because he and Clemente loathed one another, and I believe even came to blows on more than one occasion.

Clendenon was selected by the Montreal Expos in the 1968 expansion draft. Then, the Expos traded Clendenon to the Astros, but he refused to report. The Astros received additional compensation and Clendenon remained with the Expos until June 15, when he was traded to the Mets.

Clemente is one of my heroes for what he did outside of baseball. I believe the animosity between Face and Clemente began early and supposedly fought each other, according to the most recent biography about Roberto. Roy Face was interviewed for the book "We Played the Game." Face spoke highly of his teammates; however, while not saying anything negative about Clemente, in his only comment he coldly observed that "Clemente got his 200 hits."

In the same book, Dick Schoefield was interviewed and he observed that a number of his teammates were putoff by Clemente's personality; he described Clemente as "paranoid." Clemente was a proud and sensitive person who felt that he wasn't treated fairly by the press. Many of the Latin players of that era were quoted syllbatically, making them sound idiotic.

Dock Ellis in his autobiography shared that by the late 60s Clemente interacted more with his teammates. Ellis would tease him, but Clemente seemed to take it in stride. Clemente did participate in the clubhouse humor in those later years. Most of his baseball cards present him with a serious visage, but there are also many photos where he is smiling.

There is a "halo effect" over Clemente due to the circumstances of his death. When I was much younger, Clemente could do no wrong. I was inspired by Clemente's life to go into a field where I could help and serve others- teaching (1987-2023). As I have aged my perception of his life is more nuanced; Clemente was a talented athlete who had a Hall of Fame career, who had tremendous pride but also had flaws. He reacted to the perceived slights, sometimes alienating others, but at the end he lived a good life and made a difference. As for Roy Face, he was a keen observer based on his interview and I hope that his remaining time is comfortable.

Phil aka Tere1071

[byrone]

When he was referred to as “Bob”, was that something Clemente was agreeable with?

Or was it condescension on the part of media and the establishment?

[BRoberts]

Originally Posted by byrone

When he was referred to as “Bob”, was that something Clemente was agreeable with?

Or was it condescension on the part of media and the establishment?

I’ve read in several sources over the years that Clemente very much disliked the “Bob” references.

[JackR]

1959…

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by BRoberts

I’ve read in several sources over the years that Clemente very much disliked the “Bob” references.

I remember when Timo Perez came up with the Mets and he was very outspoken - as a rookie - about the press and fans calling him “Tim O’Neil” Perez (pronouncing it that way).

[akleinb611]

Originally Posted by Tere1071

Clendenon was selected by the Montreal Expos in the 1968 expansion draft. Then, the Expos traded Clendenon to the Astros, but he refused to report. The Astros received additional compensation and Clendenon remained with the Expos until June 15, when he was traded to the Mets.

You're correct, of course, but it doesn't change my point. Clendenon was left unprotected in the draft in spite of the fact that he still had some gas in the tank, quite possibly to appease Clemente

I can't cite the specific source for my impression, but I believe the reason Clemente had issues with his African-American teammates was that he was perceived as a "Company Man." Harry Walker, who managed the Pirates in the mid-Sixties, was largely (and probably correctly) perceived as somewhat racist. Issues quickly arose between Walker and many black players, and Clemente repeatedly defended Walker. The resulting ill feelings were unfortunate but probably inevitable.

Another problem was that while Clemente was very active in charitable causes in Puerto Rico, the perception was that he did little or nothing of that sort in Pittsburgh itself. I haven't researched this, but if that's the case, it would be another wedge driven between Clemente and players and fans.

I'm not trying to bash Clemente, just to make the point that heroic though his death may have been, he was not a saint, and it's no surprise some of his contemporaries may not have been fond of him. I guess the best way to view it is that I have no doubt that Clemente was subjected to racism and to cultural misunderstanding - but that he didn't handle it well.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by akleinb611

You're correct, of course, but it doesn't change my point. Clendenon was left unprotected in the draft in spite of the fact that he still had some gas in the tank, quite possibly to appease Clemente

Or it could be because Clendenon's production had dropped off a lot. In 1967 he hit . 249/.298/.370 OPS+ 91. In 1968 he hit .257/.309/.399 OPS+ 114. The Pirates protected Al Oliver instead. Oliver would play 17 more years in the majors hitting .303 with 2742 hits and made 7 All Star teams. The Pirates clearly made the correct decision.

[akleinb611]

It’s true that Clendenon was close to the end of his career, but he had enough left to mentor the 1969 Mets, who gave him a lot of credit for their miraculous run that year.

By the way, the reason Clendenon refused to report to Houston that year? They were being managed by - Harry Walker.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by akleinb611

It’s true that Clendenon was close to the end of his career, but he had enough left to mentor the 1969 Mets, who gave him a lot of credit for their miraculous run that year.

By the way, the reason Clendenon refused to report to Houston that year? They were being managed by - Harry Walker.

My uncle hated Walker. If you see some interviews with him, Charlie is “yeah, he was kind of a dick”, but behind closed doors, he despised the guy.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by akleinb611

It’s true that Clendenon was close to the end of his career, but he had enough left to mentor the 1969 Mets, who gave him a lot of credit for their miraculous run that year.

By the way, the reason Clendenon refused to report to Houston that year? They were being managed by - Harry Walker.

In 1970 in just 121 games he slashed 22/97/.288.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In 1970 in just 121 games he slashed 22/97/.288.

In 1969 Clendenon slashed . 248/.303/.432 OPS+ 103. He had one decent season his last 6 years in MLB. You don't hang on to that bad production from your 1B.

In 1970 the Pirates 1B Bob Robertson slashed . 287/.367/.564 OPS+ 149. The last time Clendenon gave the Pirates that kind of production was never. With Robertson and Oliver the Pirates won the NL East 5 of 6 years from 1970-1975.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

In 1969 Clendenon slashed . 248/.303/.432 OPS+ 103. He had one decent season his last 6 years in MLB. You don't hang on to that bad production from your 1B.

In 1970 the Pirates 1B Bob Robertson slashed . 287/.367/.564 OPS+ 149. The last time Clendenon gave the Pirates that kind of production was never. With Robertson and Oliver the Pirates won the NL East 5 of 6 years from 1970-1975.

Given his longevity and counting stats, it surprised me to see that Oliver only ended up in the mid 40s in WAR.