Ohtani CARDS are Mostly UNDERVALUED

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

The hype machine needed to be turned way down for this guy. You just don't compare someone to Babe Ruth, plain and simple. The odds of living up to such expectations are practically nil. For me personally, all the hype turned me off from caring, but I don't follow modern baseball to begin with.

If the media had toned it down a few notches, far more people would be impressed by him. His stats are pretty nice. .667 PCT over 5 seasons? At this point, he's won exactly twice as many games as he's lost. When Babe Ruth is the bar you're expected to measure up to, you're basically left to twist in the wind if you can't prove you can walk on water.

[Carter08]

I don’t follow him all that much, mostly due to east coast bias, but this year he’ll get his third league MVP award in four years. The year he didn’t win he came in second. Guy is a smooth and powerful wrecking crew. Even if you leave aside the fact that he can be a top line ace (which is a big thing to leave aside), he has to be considered the best or at least a top three player in the game over the last 4 years.

[Kutcher55]

If his cards are priced like he's a modern day Babe Ruth, he is not undervalued. If he continues on this path and hits 500+ HRs and end up in the HOF then yeah I suppose the cards could go up, but more likely he goes the way of Mike Trout cards, which I have heard are down massively from their covid highs, despite the guy being a guaranteed first ballot HOF'er.

[bk400]

I find it hard to argue that he's overrated as a player for all of the reasons that others have stated. I'd go as far to say that he's one of the top 3 most impressive athletes in the world in any sport, given what he's been able to do in a major market US professional league -- where the sheer amount of money at play ensures a super high level of competitiveness.

In terms of his cards, I find some of his Japanese rookie cards (like some of the short-printed 2013 BBMs and Calbees) to be most interesting. The US ones from 2018 onward are an exercise in artificial scarcity since he was already a hyped star in the making by the time he hit US shores.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by bk400

I find it hard to argue that he's overrated as a player for all of the reasons that others have stated. I'd go as far to say that he's one of the top 3 most impressive athletes in the world in any sport, given what he's been able to do in a major market US professional league -- where the sheer amount of money at play ensures a super high level of competitiveness.

In terms of his cards, I find some of his Japanese rookie cards (like some of the short-printed 2013 BBMs and Calbees) to be most interesting. The US ones from 2018 onward are an exercise in artificial scarcity since he was already a hyped star in the making by the time he hit US shores.

There are a ton of artificially scarce cards that sell for $50,000+ every week in Goldin. Some of them for $150,000+.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

There are a ton of artificially scarce cards that sell for $50,000+ every week in Goldin. Some of them for $150,000+.

LOL, yes but in a few years they will be in bargain bin boxes for $1. Not long ago Yasiel Puig was going to be the greatest ever and his rookie sold for 30k or 40k. PT Barnum would be proud of the pump and dumpers in our hobby.

[packs]

Yasiel Puig didn't win two MVPs and isn't headed toward his third either.

A third MVP for Ohtani would put him in some pretty rarified air and I don't see a single bust among the players on that list except for Rodriguez and Bonds, who cheated, but still enjoy a strong following anyway.

Where's the dollar guy in this group of three time MVPs?

Barry Bonds,
Mike Trout,
Albert Pujols,
Alex Rodriguez,
Mike Schmidt,
Mickey Mantle,
Yogi Berra,
Roy Campanella

[frankbmd]

Yasiel will be on the Hall of Fame ballot soon, Ben. You may have to eat your words.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

The hype machine needed to be turned way down for this guy. You just don't compare someone to Babe Ruth, plain and simple. The odds of living up to such expectations are practically nil. For me personally, all the hype turned me off from caring, but I don't follow modern baseball to begin with.

If the media had toned it down a few notches, far more people would be impressed by him. His stats are pretty nice. .667 PCT over 5 seasons? At this point, he's won exactly twice as many games as he's lost. When Babe Ruth is the bar you're expected to measure up to, you're basically left to twist in the wind if you can't prove you can walk on water.

I don't mind the comparisons, because what Ohtani is doing in this era, relative to his peers, is incredible. We're in an age of intense specialization, where players have dietitians and strength coaches, and pitchers come out of academies that focus on spin rate, stride length, release point, etc. etc.

The fact that Ohtani is able to dominate both half-innings in that environment is incredible. I only wish he weren't doing it for the Dodgers.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

I don't mind the comparisons, because what Ohtani is doing in this era, relative to his peers, is incredible. We're in an age of intense specialization, where players have dietitians and strength coaches, and pitchers come out of academies that focus on spin rate, stride length, release point, etc. etc.

The fact that Ohtani is able to dominate both half-innings in that environment is incredible. I only wish he weren't doing it for the Dodgers.

Fully agree, and your thoughts came to me after I posted. What you wrote can be seen just by checking out his stats. I must say that I was impressed. That was the first time I've given him much of any thought.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

The hype machine needed to be turned way down for this guy. You just don't compare someone to Babe Ruth, plain and simple. The odds of living up to such expectations are practically nil. For me personally, all the hype turned me off from caring, but I don't follow modern baseball to begin with.

If the media had toned it down a few notches, far more people would be impressed by him. His stats are pretty nice. .667 PCT over 5 seasons? At this point, he's won exactly twice as many games as he's lost. When Babe Ruth is the bar you're expected to measure up to, you're basically left to twist in the wind if you can't prove you can walk on water.

You can't compare Ruth and Ohtani. Ruth didn't have the option to pitch and DH. If he had, who knows what he could have been. This year, all Ohtani is doing is hitting, he isn't playing in the field. He has an OPS+ of 174. Ruth's career OPS+ was 206 and he played defense too.

As for pitching, Ruth started 147 games, completed 107 games and threw 17 shutouts. Ohtani has started 86 and had 1 complete game and shutout. Ruth led the league in ERA, something Ohtani is yet to do. Ohtani has a better ERA+, but he only pitches 5 1/2 innings per start, unlike Ruth who was expected to go through the lineup more than twice.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by rats60

You can't compare Ruth and Ohtani. Ruth didn't have the option to pitch and DH. If he had, who knows what he could have been. This year, all Ohtani is doing is hitting, he isn't playing in the field. He has an OPS+ of 174. Ruth's career OPS+ was 206 and he played defense too.

As for pitching, Ruth started 147 games, completed 107 games and threw 17 shutouts. Ohtani has started 86 and had 1 complete game and shutout. Ruth led the league in ERA, something Ohtani is yet to do. Ohtani has a better ERA+, but he only pitches 5 1/2 innings per start, unlike Ruth who was expected to go through the lineup more than twice.

Ohtani faces a higher quality player pool post-segregation. So there’s that.

[oldjudge]

And he is not the best hitter in baseball. That would be Aaron Judge (who also plays a solid outfield).

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

And he is not the best hitter in baseball. That would be Aaron Judge (who also plays a solid outfield).

Ohtani and Judge probably the two best hitters in the game. Judge has never pitched to my knowledge.

[packs]

A lot of board people didn't think all that much of Judge either.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by packs

A lot of board people didn't think all that much of Judge either.

Judge is awesome. His late start is what holds him back a little. Looks like he may catch and pass Trout in counting stats before it is over.

[Carter08]

The gambling situation is admittedly a valid response to this, but seriously what is there not to like about Ohtani?

[D. Bergin]

Looks like he has it wrapped up in a weak field this year, especially since Ketel Marte got hurt, but has a DH ever won MVP before?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Ohtani and Judge probably the two best hitters in the game. Judge has never pitched to my knowledge.

At least for now, Soto is in that discussion IMO.

[conor912]

Undervalued? Seems to me that first ballot HOF entry is already 1000% baked into everything of his. Every single one of his 100 million cards printed is being treated like gold.

[packs]

I don't think the comparisons to Babe Ruth will ever be in the realm of realistic but Ohtani is clearly playing well above expectations and is in a class of his own in the modern game. But there is no comparing to Ruth. Nobody will ever compare to Ruth.

Ruth hit 59 home runs but he also batted 378 that year. The year he hit 60 he batted 356. He's a career 342 hitter with 714 home runs. Nobody will ever be that good.

And now a card:

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

At least for now, Soto is in that discussion IMO.

Betts and Witt too. Henderson knocking on the door.

[packs]

Mookie Betts is a good player but he's no Aaron Judge. Even at his peak he is overshadowed:

Betts MVP season: 186 OPS+ - pretty incredible year BUT
Judge MVP season: 210 OPS+ and his OPS+ right now is even better at 226

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Betts and Witt too. Henderson knocking on the door.

Witt is too young IMO to make any judgments yet.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

And he is not the best hitter in baseball. That would be Aaron Judge (who also plays a solid outfield).

Judge is the best hitter in MLB now for sure. The only other players I'd put in that top echelon are Ohtani and Witt.

[jakebeckleyoldeagleeye]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

The hype machine needed to be turned way down for this guy. You just don't compare someone to Babe Ruth, plain and simple. The odds of living up to such expectations are practically nil. For me personally, all the hype turned me off from caring, but I don't follow modern baseball to begin with.

If the media had toned it down a few notches, far more people would be impressed by him. His stats are pretty nice. .667 PCT over 5 seasons? At this point, he's won exactly twice as many games as he's lost. When Babe Ruth is the bar you're expected to measure up to, you're basically left to twist in the wind if you can't prove you can walk on water.

Bobby Witt Jr, Aaron Judge and Soto could show him what they use gloves for. He's just a glorified DH and the MLB poster boy that the MLB Network shoeshine boys promote.

[Peter_Spaeth]

He's a great enough hitter that the Dodgers may not want to risk a career ending injury by letting him pitch again.

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by jakebeckleyoldeagleeye

Bobby Witt Jr, Aaron Judge and Soto could show him what they use gloves for. He's just a glorified DH and the MLB poster boy that the MLB Network shoeshine boys promote.

Grantland Rice over here waxing poetically on the guy that’a a two time MVP, on pace for the first 50/50 season in MLB history, made 80 starts over the previous three seasons with a sub 3.00 era, and is recovering from a torn UCL during said first 50/50 season. Truly marvelous.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

Grantland Rice over here waxing poetically on the guy that’a a two time MVP, on pace for the first 50/50 season in MLB history, made 80 starts over the previous three seasons with a sub 3.00 era, and is recovering from a torn UCL during said first 50/50 season. Truly marvelous.

It’s really something to behold. “But he doesn’t field.” I don’t know - just maybe the team that saw fit to make him the highest paid player of all time due to his pretty unprecedented hitting and pitching abilities decided to take advantage of the DH to keep him doing those things better than anyone else. Not a dumb move.

[Exhibitman]

Both Judge and Ohtani are simply marvelous this year but as Sparky Anderson said after the 1976 WS when someone compared Thurman Munson to Johnny Bench:

"Munson is an outstanding player and he would hit.300 in the National League, but don’t ever embarrass anybody by comparing him to Johnny Bench."

Same for Ruth; don't embarrass Judge and Ohtani by comparing them to Ruth. Judge doesn't compare because he can't pitch. Ohtani can pitch but he's 38-19 with a 3.01 ERA and a lifetime batting average of .277 with 2900 ABs. OPS+ .989. Ruth went 94-46 with a 2.28 ERA, hit .342 and over 8900+ ABs, has a career OPS+ of 1.164. He had ten years with WAR above 10; Ohtani has had zero (best was 9.9). Judge and Ohtani are fantastic and great drawing cards and guys too (as far as we know) but comparing them to Ruth just isn't fair to them.

Oh, and a vintage card:

[Carter08]

I don’t know too many people, if anyone, arguing that Ohtani is better than Ruth. I think many people would say he’s the best pitching and hitting phenom to play the game since Ruth. Hardly seems like a comparison that should offend even the staunchest supporter of pre-segregation baseball.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by Carter08

I think many people would say he’s the best pitching and hitting phenom to play the game since Ruth.

Well said!

[doug.goodman]

It's been awhile since there was a card in this thread, here are a few

[jakebeckleyoldeagleeye]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

Grantland Rice over here waxing poetically on the guy that’a a two time MVP, on pace for the first 50/50 season in MLB history, made 80 starts over the previous three seasons with a sub 3.00 era, and is recovering from a torn UCL during said first 50/50 season. Truly marvelous.

Go shine his shoes then with the MLB Network shoeshine boys Mr. Hipster. You all can hype him together while Judge has slugs batting behind him and the glorious one has two MVP's protecting him. BTW without the DH where would he play this season since you are Mr. Know It All and marvelous also.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by jakebeckleyoldeagleeye

Go shine his shoes then with the MLB Network shoeshine boys Mr. Hipster. You all can hype him together while Judge has slugs batting behind him and the glorious one has two MVP's protecting him. BTW without the DH where would he play this season since you are Mr. Know It All and marvelous also.

At this point, they could probably put him at shortstop and the dude would win a gold glove lol

[NYYFan63]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

The hype machine needed to be turned way down for this guy. You just don't compare someone to Babe Ruth, plain and simple. The odds of living up to such expectations are practically nil. For me personally, all the hype turned me off from caring, but I don't follow modern baseball to begin with.

If the media had toned it down a few notches, far more people would be impressed by him. His stats are pretty nice. .667 PCT over 5 seasons? At this point, he's won exactly twice as many games as he's lost. When Babe Ruth is the bar you're expected to measure up to, you're basically left to twist in the wind if you can't prove you can walk on water.

I agree 100%! The guy has had a couple good years and all of a sudden he is being compared to Babe Ruth? Cmon! And he is 30 years old and a 41 bWar. He wont catch Ruth.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by NYYFan63

I agree 100%! The guy has had a couple good years and all of a sudden he is being compared to Babe Ruth? Cmon! And he is 30 years old and a 41 bWar. He won't catch Ruth.

He was being compared to Ruth before ever crossing the ocean. The first time I heard the comparison, I don't know if my groan was louder than my eye roll. All I could think of was Matsuzaka...just in the sense of a ridiculously highly-touted prospect who cost some team way too much money and failed miserably. I don't wish misfortune on any prospect, but it always feels like the greater the hype, the greater the flop. To hear this kid being compared to Babe Ruth...I just felt bad.

But, much to his credit, he's done well! For all the reasons we've discussed, he will never and could never be Babe Ruth and it was wrong of the media to make that comparison, both for Ohtani's sake and the sake of it being an impossibe, incorrect comparison.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

He was being compared to Ruth before ever crossing the ocean. The first time I heard the comparison, I don't know if my groan was louder than my eye roll. All I could think of was Matsuzaka...just in the sense of a ridiculously highly-touted prospect who cost some team way too much money and failed miserably. I don't wish misfortune on any prospect, but it always feels like the greater the hype, the greater the flop. To hear this kid being compared to Babe Ruth...I just felt bad.

But, much to his credit, he's done well! For all the reasons we've discussed, he will never and could never be Babe Ruth and it was wrong of the media to make that comparison, both for Ohtani's sake and the sake of it being an impossibe, incorrect comparison.

He has done well is a bit of an understatement. He has done better than everyone or just about every one else in the league for 4 years might be more accurate.

[jboosted92]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

The hype machine needed to be turned way down for this guy. You just don't compare someone to Babe Ruth, plain and simple. The odds of living up to such expectations are practically nil. For me personally, all the hype turned me off from caring, but I don't follow modern baseball to begin with.

If the media had toned it down a few notches, far more people would be impressed by him. His stats are pretty nice. .667 PCT over 5 seasons? At this point, he's won exactly twice as many games as he's lost. When Babe Ruth is the bar you're expected to measure up to, you're basically left to twist in the wind if you can't prove you can walk on water.

ahem