49 bowman mystery remains unsolved

[sflayank]

A pack orange green opened had 2nd series bowman
A pack red white blue opened had 2nd series bowmans
Why they made 2 different boxes and wrappers
Will remain a mystery

[molenick]

Although not quite a haiku, there is something poetic about this to me.

[ALR-bishop]

I would be personally grateful if you could figure it out Larry and report back

[sflayank]

48 49 50 51 52 are all red white and blue..wrappers and boxes
Why green orange 49 also?

[ALR-bishop]

Larry---I keep these two wrappers with my 49 Bowman set. Also have the 49 Bowman PCL set. Any chance the different wrapper was associated with distribution of the PCL set as well as 2nd series regular ?

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by sflayank

A pack orange green opened had 2nd series bowman
A pack red white blue opened had 2nd series bowmans
Why they made 2 different boxes and wrappers
Will remain a mystery

With a little more refinement, we'd have a Haiku

[sflayank]

Until an unopened pack of pcl shows up i dont think we will know

[ALR-bishop]

The pack has to show AND then owner has to want to open it 😱

[Webster]

Although this MAY or MAY NOT have been a legitimate unopened pack (it was rejected by Steve at BBC) we should be clear about what was pulled. THEY WERE NOT ALL FROM THE SAME SERIES:

Card:
Wehmeier 51
Scheffing 83
Lehner 131
McBride 74
Litwhiler 97
Page 62

I do not know exactly how the series break down, but I am quite sure 51 and 131 are in different series. Anyone have an accurate breakdown to post?

[sflayank]

Most think the pcl didnt even come in packs
Sheets of 36 that were cut up
So the mystery remains

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Webster

Although this MAY or MAY NOT have been a legitimate unopened pack (it was rejected by Steve at BBC) we should be clear about what was pulled. THEY WERE NOT ALL FROM THE SAME SERIES:

Card:
Wehmeier 51
Scheffing 83
Lehner 131
McBride 74
Litwhiler 97
Page 62

I do not know exactly how the series break down, but I am quite sure 51 and 131 are in different series. Anyone have an accurate breakdown to post?

The conventional story is:
1: 1-3, 5-36, 73
2: 37-72
3: 4, 74-108
4: 109-144
5: 145-180
6: 181-216
7: 217-240

[Webster]

The Red White and Blue Pack contained 5 Cards (as indicated on the wrapper):

Baker 119
Nicholson 76
Zoldak 78
Scarboro 140
Christman 121

All of these are from Series 3+4.
In the Orange and Green pack there were two cards from Series 2, with the others from 3 + 4.

IF these were not tampered with, it's POSSIBLE that the Orange and Green was used for Series 1 + 2, and they had some left over for the "transition" to series 3 and 4. The Red White and Blue was then used for series 3 + 4 and all subsequent series. (That would explain why they are the more common wrapper).

[Yoda]

Ted Z. would know the answer in about 20 seconds. He loved the '49 Bowmans and had a massive collection, including a full set of the PCL players.

[Webster]

Ted’s (great) thread in the set can be found in the archives. That is the souce of the “series” breakdown above. However, what Ted refers to as series are actually individual sheet layouts. I believe he suggests that sheets (or “series”) 1 and 2 were issued together at the beginning of the season.

[oaks1912]

Originally Posted by sflayank

Most think the pcl didnt even come in packs
Sheets of 36 that were cut up
So the mystery remains

Ted Zanidakis and I collaborated on an article nearly 30 years ago which addresses some of these questions. You can find it in VCBC, issue #10 from March 1997

[ALR-bishop]

I certainly can not say how the PCL cards were circulated but can say it was a very hard set to complete.

I do keep a copy of Ted and Mark's article with my 49 Bowman sets, and a subsequent SABR article by Tim Jenkins

[oaks1912]

For Al and others who may have interest.....

Since the VCBC article was published in 1997, a few notes can be added which were not included in Tim Jenkins piece published in 2020. First off , there have been several small 'finds' of "outside the hobby" 1949 Bowman PCL cards, all of which turned up in the metro Seattle area as well as northern Oregon. This will add slightly to the overall population. However it is possible with the plethora of large scale fires and flooding in the Western U.S. that some 'documented' cards could actually have been destroyed.

My source for the uncut sheet find was the late Walt Gerson, from Salem, Oregon. Walt was a longtime paper ephemera dealer that stumbled across a group of '49 Bowman PCL cards locally. This find included a 'few' uncut sheets. Walt set up at the 1987 National in San Francisco, where he sold the sheets.

In mid 2020 I started to piece out the estate of a long time Bay Area collector (and friend) who had recently passed away, a process which took 15 months. Included in this collection was a full set of 36 uncirculated 1949 Bowman PCL cards. They were all the exact same size, but had been cut down by a higher quality process making them appear as Mint as a brand new product. The edges were sharper than any original "pack circulated" '49 Bowmans that exist. Included with this set was the documentation of where it was acquired in the early 1990's. I contacted that seller & he does not recall the specifics of transacting that set (from 30 years earlier), nor it's origin. We both felt it was one of those sheets from the '87 find that had been professionally cut down, somewhere between 1987 and 1991. This magnificent set was sold to an advanced collector, along with the history that was known about this group. I believe that this collector still owns the set.

The purpose of the 'second' '49 Bowman wrapper is still only speculation. The only collector that I ever encountered from the Pacific Northwest who not only bought them out of packs in 1949 (Greenlake district in Seattle) AND was in the hobby continuously (until his death) was the late Frank Caruso. Frank was a longtime friend and his recall was almost as good as Ted Zanidakis' , especially when I talked with him about the Bowman PCL series in the 90's. Anything short of an unopened box find from a pedigreed Northwest general store that went out of business in the summer of '49 would continue the speculation.

[toppcat]

There is some background on the 49 Bowman Packs here:

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...d-pack-breaks/

[ALR-bishop]

Thaks for posting Dave

[drcy]

As a limerick:

A pack of orange-green cards was seen,
A second pack, red-white-blue sheen.
Two boxes, they made,
In different shades,
Why so? Well, that's still unforeseen!

[Webster]

That’s a nice SCD write-up. Unfortunately, it incorrectly states that all of the 1949 Bowmans were from the second series. Using Ted Z’s nomenclature, the cards from the Orange/green Pack were series 2, 3, and 4. The Red/white/blue contained series 3 and 4.

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by sflayank

A pack orange green opened had 2nd series bowman
A pack red white blue opened had 2nd series bowmans
Why they made 2 different boxes and wrappers
Will remain a mystery

No mystery at all

The Orange Green is a 1 cent pack and Box

The Blue Red is a 5 Cent pack and Box

[Webster]

That's an interesting theory, except:

1. There is no indication on the Orange/Green Box that it is a 1 cent pack:

https://rockhurstauctions.com/LotDet...entoryid=10478

2. There were six cards in the Orange/Green pack and 5 cards in the R/W/B pack. 1 cent packs typically had just one or two cards.

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by Webster

That's an interesting theory, except:

1. There is no indication on the Orange/Green Box that it is a 1 cent pack:

https://rockhurstauctions.com/LotDet...entoryid=10478

2. There were six cards in the Orange/Green pack and 5 cards in the R/W/B pack. 1 cent packs typically had just one or two cards.

Are we sure there were that many cards in there? I know 1952 topps 5 cents packs have 6 cards. Though there are no markings on the Orange and Green box and wrapper, I still like it as the 1 cent. They had to have had a 1 cent wrapper and box like they did in 1950 and 51 and 52. But who knows, I wasn't around to open them in 1949.

[Buckeyez]

Why the #114, a non-short print, mid-level star is so difficult to find?

[Bram99]

I think this is mostly correct, but I would add that the below number ranges are the sheets, not really the series. Each sheet had 36 cards.

From what I understand, the 1st series is the first two sheets, and second series is the second two sheets and so on.

The reason for the 1-3 then skipping 4 was that #4 Jerry Priddy didn't show up on the first sheet of cards numbered through 36, nor on the second sheet numbered 37-73.

As you will note, 240 is not divisible evenly by 36. In fact, there are 252 cards in the set. 240 different numbers, and 12 variations of the original 240 cards. They needed another 12 cards to put on the last sheet to fill it out to the full 36 cards on the sheet (and 252 for the set). I've never heard how those 12 cards were selected, but they are noted in the set building and grading community as alternatives that have a "Name On Front" (vs. the version that does not) or a "Printed Name on Back" (vs. the script name version). Accordingly since these were printed on the last sheet after #240, they are technically short prints and are similarly scarce to the high numbers 145-240.

All of that said, I know nothing about the wrappers!! (:0)

Originally Posted by G1911

The conventional story is:
1: 1-3, 5-36, 73
2: 37-72
3: 4, 74-108
4: 109-144
5: 145-180
6: 181-216
7: 217-240

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Bram99

I think this is mostly correct, but I would add that the below number ranges are the sheets, not really the series. Each sheet had 36 cards.

From what I understand, the 1st series is the first two sheets, and second series is the second two sheets and so on.

The reason for the 1-3 then skipping 4 was that #4 Jerry Priddy didn't show up on the first sheet of cards numbered through 36, nor on the second sheet numbered 37-73.

As you will note, 240 is not divisible evenly by 36. In fact, there are 252 cards in the set. 240 different numbers, and 12 variations of the original 240 cards. They needed another 12 cards to put on the last sheet to fill it out to the full 36 cards on the sheet (and 252 for the set). I've never heard how those 12 cards were selected, but they are noted in the set building and grading community as alternatives that have a "Name On Front" (vs. the version that does not) or a "Printed Name on Back" (vs. the script name version). Accordingly since these were printed on the last sheet after #240, they are technically short prints and are similarly scarce to the high numbers 145-240.

All of that said, I know nothing about the wrappers!! (:0)

I am not at all confident the traditional narrative is correct with this series, or that sheets are as small as claimed or they were released as these series. I just coped in the conventional story people like to work with. Ted's claims for the 52-55 Bowman Footballs using essentially this same kind of tiny sheet layout and series have been proven false and I haven't dived in enough to the baseball sheets before 55 to be positive it's correct on these. The pack openings above would strongly suggest something is also not quite right here. I'd take a careful look at direct evidence before accepting these series/sheets as actually true.

[Bram99]

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/417028

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/417010

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Rk6GBqQuP...frontuncut.jpg

https://robertedwardauctions.com/arc...r-stan-musials

https://robertedwardauctions.com/arc...ll-wrong-backs

The first two sheets are quite well documented.

I also have a group of 36 overprint back ones 1-3, 5 to 37 that I picked up. I think the 36 card layout of the sheets is pretty well confirmed.

Not many of the higher numbered series did survive though, so perhaps they could have changed to 72 card double sheets at some point, or re-printing certain cards over again on later sheets like Topps did with 1953, but the assumption has been that they were printed in sheets of 36, 7 of them.

It is pretty clear that the 12 PNOB and NOF cards are more scarce than their counterpart lower series cards as well if you check the population reports on PSA and SGC.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Bram99

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/417028

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/417010

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Rk6GBqQuP...frontuncut.jpg

https://robertedwardauctions.com/arc...r-stan-musials

https://robertedwardauctions.com/arc...ll-wrong-backs

The first two sheets are quite well documented.

I also have a group of 36 overprint back ones 1-3, 5 to 37 that I picked up. I think the 36 card layout of the sheets is pretty well confirmed.

Not many of the higher numbered series did survive though, so perhaps they could have changed to 72 card double sheets at some point, or re-printing certain cards over again on later sheets like Topps did with 1953, but the assumption has been that they were printed in sheets of 36, 7 of them.

It is pretty clear that the 12 PNOB and NOF cards are more scarce than their counterpart lower series cards as well if you check the population reports on PSA and SGC.

I'm aware of the panels.

A large size 1951 Bowman sheet was found, and we have large sections of 1955 showing that those were big sheets (although the 1951's too were allegedly small sheets).

The same layout of small panels of 36/32 were used the same way by the same authorities in Bowman Football to state that there were only 36/32 cards on a sheet and those are a series - this has been completely debunked by miscuts for every year form 1950-1955 so far.

Pack openings, like those in this thread, do not really fit with the story.

The panels do not show indica of being full sheets, the empty spaces at each side that a full sheet has. The assumption of the conventional story of Bowman sheets and series all at its root relies on an assumption that these panels are complete sheets, not partial panels. I would love to see one of these panels that actually appears to be a full sheet instead of a selected cut of a partial sheet. That these are entire, complete production sheets are not, in fact, "well documented" or "confirmed".

I would thus not assume this rendition as true, as there is no evidence I can find that the panels are complete sheets and considerable evidence that they probably are not.