Massive theft at Dallas card show, Nearly 2 Million Dollars worth of cards stolen

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by Belfast1933

Amazing to me how people here dance around with accusatory “questions” that take veiled shots at a well respected dealer who was massively victimized here.

Seriously, what is wrong with these people?

Ashsh is a great guy, a respected dealer and deserves the benefit of the doubt - so sorry to see this news, Ashsh. And I hope you never any of these jagoff comments that imply anything other than empathy for what happened

Hang in there, bud. Hoping for a surprise good outcome here 🤞

Yeah, in the Memory Lane theft thread, I didn't understand it either. Focus should be on the criminals, merchandise, and how the theft occurred. Sympathy for the victim, until proven otherwise.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by SyrNy1960

Yeah, in the Memory Lane theft thread, I didn't understand it either. Focus should be on the criminals, merchandise, and how the theft occurred. Sympathy for the victim, until proven otherwise.

+1

[gregndodgers]

If I had to bet, I would say these thieves already had buyers lined up or potential buyers. IMO, a good portion of the sports card industry is driven by collectors who have a network of buyers and sellers. So IMO, the really rare / high end stuff would likely end up in private collections and stay there for years. The other stuff will be cracked open, and then either sold raw or regraded.

I just called ten pawn shops in several big cities. Most will not take cards, but two said they will. One said they only take graded cards that are numbered, and one said they take raw or graded.

All it takes is for one of these cards to be discovered, and then the whole scheme could unravel.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by gregndodgers

If I had to bet, I would say these thieves already had buyers lined up or potential buyers. IMO, a good portion of the sports card industry is driven by collectors who have a network of buyers and sellers. So IMO, the really rare / high end stuff would likely end up in private collections and stay there for years. The other stuff will be cracked open, and then either sold raw or regraded.

All it takes is for one of these cards to be discovered, and then the whole scheme could unravel.

Your theory is certainly possible.

It just seems like you're introducing a whole lot of co-conspirators into the process, which dramatically increases the likelihood of detection.

In theory, a single buyer might make more sense, just to keep the number of involved parties to a minimum. But when you look at the inventory here, just as one example, it's hard for me to imagine a single buyer who feels like they need a fist full of mostly low-grade 52 Mantles, and they're willing to risk prison to get them. Maybe a single 52 Mantle in PSA 8/9/10 or a high grade complete 52T set. Or pick your favorite high value and desireable grouping of cards that would slot into a nice collection to hold in perpetuity. While the stolen case of cards is certainly a very valuable grouping of cards, it doesn't scream out to me that some aspiring collector with a bunch of cash and shady morals would decide that they'd rather pick up this assortment of cards on the cheap for their own collection, because they're dying to have all of these specific cards.

[gregndodgers]

Originally Posted by raulus

Your theory is certainly possible.

It just seems like you're introducing a whole lot of co-conspirators into the process, which dramatically increases the likelihood of detection.

The buyers don't know they are stolen.

For example, there is a card shop I know of that has a reputation - among a small community of collectors in my area - for dealing in stolen cards. He gets some really amazing cards...Babe Ruths, Cobbs, Michael Jordan's - all high end stuff. I always wondered how he always had such great inventory until one day another card shop owner said he sells hot cards. Well, I know for a fact that as soon as a great card walks in the door, that unscrupulous shop owner already has a buyer for the card. In fact, he has a network of high end collectors that routinely buy from him. They spend thousands each month. One quick phone call, and the card has been re-sold.

Once I figured this out, I stopped going to his shop.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by gregndodgers

The buyers don't know they are stolen.

For example, there is a card shop I know of that has a reputation - among a small community of collectors in my area - for dealing in stolen cards. He gets some really amazing cards...Babe Ruths, Cobbs, Michael Jordan's - all high end stuff. I always wondered how he always had such great inventory until one day another card shop owner said he sells hot cards. Well, I know for a fact that as soon as a great card walks in the door, that unscrupulous shop owner already has a buyer for the card. In fact, he has a network of high end collectors that routinely buy from him. They spend thousands each month. One quick phone call, and the card has been re-sold.

Once I figured this out, I stopped going to his shop.

So there's a constant supply of stolen high end cards being sold in plain sight and this all just goes under the radar?

[gregndodgers]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So there's a constant supply of stolen high end cards being sold in plain sight and this all just goes under the radar?

Yea, is that so surprising? Of course, the guy is smart and takes precautions. He does not ask any questions when he buys the cards, and he quickly sells them. In fact, I would think that even he does not know they are stolen.

One day, I was in the unscrupulous shop, and I heard the shop owner receive two calls in a span of 30 minutes. Both were from people who live out of town and were "just traveling through the area," and they had some high end cards to sell. One was a raw Jordan RC. The shop owner told him to bring it in. Now, I don't know for sure that the Jordan was stolen, but when a non-local person "just travelling through" comes into your store with a high end card (and perhaps sells it for 25% of book), then it begs the question of whether the card is stolen.

Hence, when I say he deals in hot cards, what I'm really saying is that he does not ask any questions when he buys even though he probably should.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by SyrNy1960

Yeah, in the Memory Lane theft thread, I didn't understand it either. Focus should be on the criminals, merchandise, and how the theft occurred. Sympathy for the victim, until proven otherwise.

There was a debate of whether Memory Lane should have continued to auction off the cards after they were stolen. If Ash were to auction these stolen cards off now I imagine there would be a similar debate.

[packs]

Do people really think the cards would end up at a pawn shop? The people who stole these cards seemed to target the case, and I'm guessing it was because they understood the value of what was inside. For them to understand cards, they'd also have to understand how easy it is to track them with flip numbers, and they'd also have to know how little they'd get from a pawn shop.

I would struggle to make sense of the theft if the purpose of the theft was to received 10 to 15% of the cards actual value at a pawn shop.

[gregndodgers]

Of all the places the cards could be sold, selling to a pawn shop would IMO be the last resort. But they have to be sold somewhere. Like pawn shops, card shops would also be a fairy low return.

However, I'd be willing to bet that some of these thieves are not the sharpest tools in the shed, and at some point might get desperate and make a mistake. If they have to pay a bill or some other expense, they may try to flip a couple of cards for quick cash. It's possible.

The main point is that to catch these guys, every option must be considered, no matter how remote. That's my belief anyway.

I was in well known card shop the other day, and a guy walked up to me while I was in the store and showed me some pictures on his phone of raw cards and asked if I would like to buy them. My first thought was that they were stolen. I just walked away.

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by packs

Do people really think the cards would end up at a pawn shop? The people who stole these cards seemed to target the case, and I'm guessing it was because they understood the value of what was inside. For them to understand cards, they'd also have to understand how easy it is to track them with flip numbers, and they'd also have to know how little they'd get from a pawn shop.

I would struggle to make sense of the theft if the purpose of the theft was to received 10 to 15% of the cards actual value at a pawn shop.

+1

From the video evidence, these thieves were competent, bordering on professional. Competent/professional thieves avoid pawn shops. Speaking as a former pawn shop manager: While the exact steps and requirements vary by jurisdiction, in most cases, people selling or pawning items have to present a valid, government issued photo ID with name and address (which the shop makes a copy of and files) and get their picture taken (plus all the in-store security footage). In PA, records for all items that the store purchases or takes in on pawn are uploaded to law enforcement daily (exactly which law enforcement varies. Larger departments may actually have a pawn division which works exclusively with pawn/second hand stores. Rural areas often use the state police. Where I worked, there was a county detectives office and they got all the records)

Also, this means that at least in PA, if recovery of the items is your goal, you DO NOT WANT TO ALERT THE PAWN SHOP. If you alert the pawn shop, they won't buy or pawn it it (they legally aren't allowed to at that point), and they won't get the ID with name and address of the people who currently possess it (if you can think of a good cover story to get someone to hand over their ID and get their picture taken even though you're declining to take their items in, I'd love to hear it). You'll be no closer to getting your stuff back. If you don't alert the pawn shop, they'll buy/pawn it, law enforcement will see it on their daily report and notify the shop they're seizing the items. Police will come to the shop, which will give them the stuff, the copy of the photo ID with name and address and the photo that they took, even download store security footage if the officer feels it's necessary. Since the form people have to sign (again this may be PA specific) states that they have the legal right to dispose of the property, the pawn shop will file a complaint for theft by deception which a) adds another charge to the perps and b) at least theoretically, is how the shop recovers its money. That does suck for the shop, as court ordered restitution is slow coming, but it's the quickest way for the victim to get their items back.

[gregndodgers]

Originally Posted by Musashi

+1

From the video evidence, these thieves were competent, bordering on professional. Competent/professional thieves avoid pawn shops. Speaking as a former pawn shop manager: While the exact steps and requirements vary by jurisdiction, in most cases, people selling or pawning items have to present a valid, government issued photo ID with name and address (which the shop makes a copy of and files) and get their picture taken (plus all the in-store security footage). In PA, records for all items that the store purchases or takes in on pawn are uploaded to law enforcement daily (exactly which law enforcement varies. Larger departments may actually have a pawn division which works exclusively with pawn/second hand stores. Rural areas often use the state police. Where I worked, there was a county detectives office and they got all the records)

Also, this means that at least in PA, if recovery of the items is your goal, you DO NOT WANT TO ALERT THE PAWN SHOP. If you alert the pawn shop, they won't buy or pawn it it (they legally aren't allowed to at that point), and they won't get the ID with name and address of the people who currently possess it (if you can think of a good cover story to get someone to hand over their ID and get their picture taken even though you're declining to take their items in, I'd love to hear it). You'll be no closer to getting your stuff back. If you don't alert the pawn shop, they'll buy/pawn it, law enforcement will see it on their daily report and notify the shop they're seizing the items. Police will come to the shop, which will give them the stuff, the copy of the photo ID with name and address and the photo that they took, even download store security footage if the officer feels it's necessary. Since the form people have to sign (again this may be PA specific) states that they have the legal right to dispose of the property, the pawn shop will file a complaint for theft by deception which a) adds another charge to the perps and b) at least theoretically, is how the shop recovers its money. That does suck for the shop, as court ordered restitution is slow coming, but it's the quickest way for the victim to get their items back.

Great info. So there you go. We've only learned this by asking questions. Again, the idea is to leave no stone unturned.

However, I wonder how closely the cops monitor the "daily report." I would think that stolen baseball cards are NOT high on their list of priorities. I would think it depends on jurisdiction and other factors.

[ALBB]

Yea,
thats a awful lot of photos of those guys, gotta be dozens of people who know who they are

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by gregndodgers

I would think it depends on jurisdiction and other factors.

There probably is variation based on jurisdiction. The folks I dealt with were pretty thorough.

While I agree that "baseball cards" in general is unlikely to jump to the top of anyone's priority list, in this particular case the "2 million+" under value of stolen property will jump out, and might trigger some extraordinary measures. There were times I was asked by LE to watch for certain items or people. I was given a phone number that, if it was safe to do so, I was to call and ask for "Nora" (Need Officer Right Away) and stall them until LE arrived. Never actually had to make a call, but you'd be surprised how many contingencies are planned for.

[gregndodgers]

Originally Posted by Musashi

There probably is variation based on jurisdiction. The folks I dealt with were pretty thorough.

While I agree that "baseball cards" in general is unlikely to jump to the top of anyone's priority list, in this particular case the "2 million+" under value of stolen property will jump out, and might trigger some extraordinary measures. There were times I was asked by LE to watch for certain items or people. I was given a phone number that, if it was safe to do so, I was to call and ask for "Nora" (Need Officer Right Away) and stall them until LE arrived. Never actually had to make a call, but you'd be surprised how many contingencies are planned for.

Great info. Thanks