Poll - Greatest Living Player

Peter_Spaeth · #1 06-26-2024, 01:04 PM

I think there's an easy explanation for Rose's stature -- he broke one of baseball's most sacred records that was long considered untouchable.

packs · #2 06-26-2024, 01:09 PM

He did break the record but if you're going to pick a player in the same vein as Rose, I think Wade Boggs was infinitely better.

Peter_Spaeth · #3 06-26-2024, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

He did break the record but if you're going to pick a player in the same vein as Rose, I think Wade Boggs was infinitely better.

I was not a fan. Purely anecdotal, but it seemed he never got a hit in a meaningful situation. Bases empty up or down five runs, he was awesome lol.

bnorth · #4 06-26-2024, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I was not a fan. Purely anecdotal, but it seemed he never got a hit in a meaningful situation. Bases empty up or down five runs, he was awesome lol.

Are you talking about Arod? Because that is what I remember about him. I believe Boggs batted around .360 with runners in scoring position.

jayshum · #5 06-26-2024, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

Are you talking about Arod? Because that is what I remember about him. I believe Boggs batted around .360 with runners in scoring position.

Not an easy stat to find, but finally found it for individual players on baseball-reference.com. Boggs hit .324 with RISP. ARod was .292.

I haven't been able to find a career leaderboard anywhere.

brian1961 · #6 06-26-2024, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayshum

Not an easy stat to find, but finally found it for individual players on baseball-reference.com. Boggs hit .324 with RISP. ARod was .292.

I haven't been able to find a career leaderboard anywhere.

Jay, a player's batting average with runners in scoring position is definitely an interesting stat. The top 2 best seasons for a player were:

1. Freddie Lindstrom, Giants, 1930 --- .480 (59 for 123)

2. George Brett, Royals, 1980 --- .469

Jay, check RETROSHEET, which is either part of SABR or Baseball-Reference.com Hope this helps, friend. --- Brian Powell

jayshum · #7 06-26-2024, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian1961

Jay, a player's batting average with runners in scoring position is definitely an interesting stat. The top 2 best seasons for a player were:

1. Freddie Lindstrom, Giants, 1930 --- .480 (59 for 123)

2. George Brett, Royals, 1980 --- .469

Jay, check RETROSHEET, which is either part of SABR or Baseball-Reference.com Hope this helps, friend. --- Brian Powell

Brain, I don't see anything on RetroSheet either about all time leaders in RISP.

Tabe · #8 06-28-2024, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian1961

Jay, a player's batting average with runners in scoring position is definitely an interesting stat. The top 2 best seasons for a player were:

1. Freddie Lindstrom, Giants, 1930 --- .480 (59 for 123)

2. George Brett, Royals, 1980 --- .469

Jay, check RETROSHEET, which is either part of SABR or Baseball-Reference.com Hope this helps, friend. --- Brian Powell

Ichiro hit .445 as a rookie with RISP, including .546 with the bases loaded.

bnorth · #9 06-26-2024, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayshum

Not an easy stat to find, but finally found it for individual players on baseball-reference.com. Boggs hit .324 with RISP. ARod was .292.

I haven't been able to find a career leaderboard anywhere.

Thanks for finding that. I had just rewatched Boggs 3000th hit game a few days ago and would have sworn I seen that stat when he was up to bat. I just rewatched his at bats and Wade hit .361 lifetime with the bases loaded according to his second at bat stats they displayed.

jayshum · #10 06-26-2024, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

Thanks for finding that. I had just rewatched Boggs 3000th hit game a few days ago and would have sworn I seen that stat when he was up to bat. I just rewatched his at bats and Wade hit .361 lifetime with the bases loaded according to his second at bat stats they displayed.

Here's how to find it for individual players on baseball-reference.com. After going to a player's page, scroll toward the bottom where it lists More Pages. Under Batting Splits, you can choose Career or an individual season. On the next page, open the listing for Show Bases Occupied.

Peter_Spaeth · #11 06-26-2024, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

Are you talking about Arod? Because that is what I remember about him. I believe Boggs batted around .360 with runners in scoring position.

I swear I never saw him get a clutch hit and I saw a lot of him. Memory may be distorted by my dislike of his attitude and obsession with his own stats.

jayshum · #12 06-26-2024, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I swear I never saw him get a clutch hit and I saw a lot of him. Memory may be distorted by my dislike of his attitude and obsession with his own stats.

People said the same thing in Philly about Bobby Abreu, but somehow he hit .311 in his career with RISP so some of that had to happen with the Phillies.

Tabe · #13 06-26-2024, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I was not a fan. Purely anecdotal, but it seemed he never got a hit in a meaningful situation. Bases empty up or down five runs, he was awesome lol.

He has an OPS of .806 or higher in every "clutch" category on baseball reference.

cgjackson222 · #14 06-26-2024, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think there's an easy explanation for Rose's stature -- he broke one of baseball's most sacred records that was long considered untouchable.

Yes, his overtaking Cobb (while corking his bat) is the explanation. It is not a good one.

packs · #15 06-26-2024, 02:20 PM

I just don't see a very good player in Pete Rose's stats. He's essentially an Ichiro clone. Their numbers from ages 27 to 45 are strikingly similar. Only 6 people chose Ichiro though and in terms of Ichiro's career, only he and Pete Rose would have accumulated 3,000 hits from age 27 on.

I guess the record explains the disparity, but Ichiro was essentially the same player.

jayshum · #16 06-26-2024, 02:37 PM

double post

jayshum · #17 06-26-2024, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

I just don't see a very good player in Pete Rose's stats. He's essentially an Ichiro clone. Their numbers from ages 27 to 45 are strikingly similar. Only 6 people chose Ichiro though and in terms of Ichiro's career, only he and Pete Rose would have accumulated 3,000 hits from age 27 on.

I guess the record explains the disparity, but Ichiro was essentially the same player.

Are you saying you don't think either Rose or Ichiro were at least very good players? That's hard to agree with.

packs · #18 06-26-2024, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayshum

Are you saying you don't think either Rose or Ichiro were at least very good players? That's hard to agree with.

No, I think they were great at one thing, I'm just not sure that one thing has enough value to elevate them to greatest living player.

It's impossible to ignore a player like Ichiro's peak, but when you look at his entire career and compare his final stats to other HOFers, I do think you're looking at a low-tier HOFer and I would say the same is true of Rose.

Ichiro: 757 career OPS with an OPS+ of 107
Rose: 784 OPS with an OPS+ of 118

All that to say I'm a big Ichiro fan and I loved watching him play. I just don't think he has a case for greatest living player and I don't think there's all that much separating him from Rose, so I have a hard time seeing Rose in the conversation. I think Wade Boggs was better than both of them and is probably the greatest living hitter from a batting title / average perspective. I think it was always Gwynn then Boggs as long as Gwynn was still alive.

jayshum · #19 06-26-2024, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

No, I think they were great at one thing, I'm just not sure that one thing has enough value to elevate them to greatest living player.

It's impossible to ignore a player like Ichiro's peak, but when you look at his entire career and compare his final stats to other HOFers, I do think you're looking at a low-tier HOFer and I would say the same is true of Rose.

Ichiro: 757 career OPS with an OPS+ of 107
Rose: 784 OPS with an OPS+ of 118

All that to say I'm a big Ichiro fan and I loved watching him play. I just don't think he has a case for greatest living player and I don't think there's all that much separating him from Rose, so I have a hard time seeing Rose in the conversation. I think Wade Boggs was better than both of them and is probably the greatest living hitter from a batting title / average perspective. I think it was always Gwynn then Boggs as long as Gwynn was still alive.

OK, I understand what you're saying. It was just the way your previous post was worded that I was confused by.

I think you also have to include Rod Carew in the conversation when you're talking about batting title and average for greatest living hitter. I agree that I wouldn't include him, Rose, Boggs or Ichiro as my pick for greatest living player, though.

packs · #20 06-26-2024, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayshum

OK, I understand what you're saying. It was just the way your previous post was worded that I was confused by.

I think you also have to include Rod Carew in the conversation when you're talking about batting title and average for greatest living hitter. I agree that I wouldn't include him, Rose, Boggs or Ichiro as my pick for greatest living player, though.

My fault. In my head I was discussing them amongst the greatest living players and high-tier HOFers when I said "not very good". They were elite compared to everyone else.

cgjackson222 · #21 06-26-2024, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

I just don't see a very good player in Pete Rose's stats. He's essentially an Ichiro clone. Their numbers from ages 27 to 45 are strikingly similar. Only 6 people chose Ichiro though and in terms of Ichiro's career, only he and Pete Rose would have accumulated 3,000 hits from age 27 on.

I guess the record explains the disparity, but Ichiro was essentially the same player.

I agree that Rose and Ichiro were similar offensively. I do give the edge to Rose because he led the League in doubles 5x and walked more.

But I think Ichiro was more well-balanced player. He stole more than twice as many bases and was a better fielder. Ichiro won 10 Gold Gloves. Rose won just 2 Gold Gloves.

Beercan collector · #22 06-26-2024, 03:29 PM

I�m not a big Pete Rose fan but he was great .
4256 hits is a big number , He hit .321 in 301 postseason at bats,
Played in six World Series and won three of them ,
MVP in �75 series -
was part of the big red machine and he had some kind of hitting streak

cgjackson222 · #23 06-26-2024, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beercan collector

I�m not a big Pete Rose fan but he was great .
4256 hits is a big number , He hit .321 in 301 postseason at bats,
Played in six World Series and won three of them ,
MVP in �75 series -
was part of the big red machine and he had some kind of hitting streak

All true, and no question he was one of the greatest ever. But I don�t see how someone can think he is the best living player.

packs · #24 06-26-2024, 03:33 PM

It’s hard to avoid Rose’s record when talking about him and it’s hard to exclude Cobb from thought by extension. Cobb was just so much better than Rose that it’s hard to see them always paired up.

I would even suggest that it’s because Rose broke Cobb’s record and Cobb’s name carries the weight it deserves to that Rose even enters the conversation. But Cobb was a mile ahead of Rose in every other way. If the hit record was held by someone other than Cobb I think Rose loses his shine. Which is to say I don’t think it’s the hit king status that vaults Rose, but the fact that it was Cobb that he topped.

View Poll Results: Who is the greatest living player today?
Ronald Acuna Jr	1	0.24%
Johnny Bench	16	3.85%
Mookie Betts	0	0%
Barry Bonds	116	27.88%
Steve Carlton	0	0%
Roger Clemens	2	0.48%
Ken Griifey Jr	38	9.13%
Rickey Henderson	27	6.49%
Randy Johnson	3	0.72%
Sandy Koufax	52	12.50%
Greg Maddux	7	1.68%
Pedro Martinez	5	1.20%
Shohei Ohtani	18	4.33%
Albert Pujols	16	3.85%
Cal Ripken Jr	5	1.20%
Alex Rodriguez	0	0%
Pete Rose	39	9.38%
Nolan Ryan	34	8.17%
Mike Schmidt	17	4.09%
Ichiro Suzuki	7	1.68%
Mike Trout	1	0.24%
Other	12	2.88%
Voters: 416. You may not vote on this poll

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